Sloping backlines and over angulation - Page 12

I read a statement several pages back, that a GSD is not a wolf. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out, of course, but clearly the whole point in bringing the wolf into the argument was missed, when the person made that statement ! The point in bringing the wild wolf into the argument is to show how natural selection has produced the absolute best TROTTER anywhere, and that is the wild WOLF.

Look at the wolf to know what a PERFECT trotter's structure should be. That is also a PERFECT working structure. Not the over/under angulations or angles or slopes or any other BS that we have created over these past decades, to justify the degradation. I say at anytime you have any doubt about the correct structure, "GO BACK to the WOLF".

Quoting Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne, one of the BEST when it comes to Herding GSDs and a true master shepherd himself:

"The gaiting structure and angulation so favored by the SV leadership and their supporters are nothing more than theory and would actually be a hindrance in the struggle for survival. JUST LOOK AT WOLVES !!"

The above statement about looking at the wolves for a perfect structure, is NOT from me, but from Manfred Heyne, who won the GSD herding competitions 13 times !

So using the wolf as the TROTTER's benchmark, where does the CURRENT DAY GSD (not the lithe/athletic GSDs from the first few decades of the breeds' existence) compare against it ? How does the Malinois compare against it ? How does the original lithe/athletic GSD (before it degraded into the "correct" version that Ibrahim posted a few pages back) fare against it ?

How about Ibrahim do a critique on the perfect trotter, the WOLF, and come up with how it is seriously "underangulated" and how the angles and slopes are all wrong for trotting !  A bit of leg pulling here, of course.

I don't know if the GSD standard was modified over the decades to fit the current structural abomination that passes as the GSD. I can't believe that logical people are calling this abomination as "CORRECT" with a straight face. If so, somebody was not thinking clearly (or maybe had a few too many beers during Oktoberfest) when they modified the current standard to fit this degraded structure.

Going back a few pages, the pictures Joan posted about her dog - perfect ! Using the wolf as the benchmark, that is as close as you can get to perfection, and the dog's athleticism is the best pointer to the correctness of the structure.

Good post Aakay !!

I have to disagree with the quote from Manfred Heyne in aakay’s post. First nearly all breeding is theory based depending on the usage of the animal based on the Breeders knowledge and their requirements for usage. Secondly, any working dog does not have to struggle for survival in the same way that a wolf does. Our dogs get fed every day and at regular times. Also, just because Herr Heyne won the herding title 13 times with the influence of human training does not mean that he is necessarily right in his comments.

Many dogs wild or feral are trotters and that is the way that nature provides them with the ability to conserve energy in the search for food. Not all of these have level backlines and are equal in their hind angulation. The anatomical development depends on good nutrition as well as nature’s help. Another thing is that it is wrong to compare the structure of the Malinois or any other breed with that of the GSD and vice versa.

The early pictures shown here are of animals that were around almost a hundred years ago. Natural evolution will make changes to the breed particularly when excellent nutrition is provided for the animals.

My comments should not be taken that I support the show dogs being produced today. There are many very good working dogs who are well constructed and have families behind them who are similar and are not so inbred as the show dogs. One such female quoted by a previous post is Paris v Mohnwiese. The picture of her here on the PDB shows her slightly overstretched which has affected the appearance of her backline. She has good working qualifications as does her breeding family. Unfortunately, the show people will not look at her and similar dogs long enough to appreciate them solely based on colour.

Mackenzie

Yes, I admit, aykay post is a good one, I wish we could test the three, a wolf, a GSD like Joan's and a GSD with good moderate angulations like specified in earlier standard. The last conforms to physics laws which shouldn't be wrong

Unfortunately, the show people will not look at her and similar dogs long enough to appreciate them solely based on colour.

Which show people?  Color is immaterial to me, as are lines, if the dog doesn't look like a coyote.

The picture on the PDB of Paris is, quite frankly, abysmal.  Doesn't mean Paris is, but it puts her in a poor light

Xeph - My comment is not directed at you personally but a generalisation. As an example to make it clearer, how many grey dogs or bi-colours do you see in the show ring.

The picture of Paris which you say is abysmal is far from it but your comment shows that you need more experience in the breed. Paris is a well constructed female with good front and rear angulation. Her topline running down to the croup is exaggerated in the picture through being overstretched ( poor Handling). Correct depth of brisket. Her length to height proportions are good. She has a good head and expression but still feminine. I would take this female every day of the week.

Mackenzie

Where did we go wrong with GSD structure?

At the time of the founder, he knew relatively more rear angulation means more momentum, more ground coverage, more economy, better endurance. That is simple physics and science, I have no doubt about it and you shouldn't. That is why he worked towards increasing the rear angulation of his breed, all his colleagues understood the idea and worked with him side by side. Increasing the rear angulation needs a well angulated shoulder to deal with the increased rear force generated, theoretically a 90 degrees is the ideal, in reality that is just not possible to achieve and that is why later on the experts made it round a 100 degrees. Those were not fools, they had the knowledge and experience, they knew what they wanted in their breed and saw the success with their eyes watching the dog under development getting better and better in the trot.
Literally speaking, more rear angulation means more momentum coming from the rear, that is a fact and again it is physics and science, and yes more angulation is better, literally speaking. But with more angulation dog developed weaker hocks, and too sloping backs, steeper croups and lower withers. All this hinders the working ability of the breed as this ability is not limited to swift beautiful side gait only, dog should be able to jump and make sharp turns. Endurance elements are more than ground covering gait only ; strong ligaments, dryness, size, weight, light strong bones, medium long hocks, tight feet, strong pasterns, high strong withers, proportions............ and internal stamina, all these elements lead to true endurance, so there should be equilibrium between gait and these other elements, exaggerated gait took from the other elements. This favorable equilibrium was achieved in the breed between seventies and nineties and we started loosing it afterwards.
The question now is like this, where do we wish to go with our breed, more swift ground covering gait irregardless (like AKC is heading with the 90 degrees stifle) or do we wish to go back to the golden equilibrium and eliminate problems associated with overangulation?
The argue that wolf structure is the correct one on one side and the argue that modern GSD gait is great and work ability (structure-wise) is perfect are both in my opinion wrong.

I personally like my female, Xena, conformation... she can go all day long.. In this picture (which was taken a couple months ago) she is 9.5 years old.. and still going strong. She does not show her age at all. She has a very nice ground covering trot.

 

This was Aiko at about 5 years old. This is the type I personally like.. He also could go all day long and had a beautiful movement.

 I do wish someone could put up TWO pix of each dog under discussion: e.g. if we could see side-by-side the two dogs Ibrahim put up earlier next to photos taken of them standing in a relaxed and natural manner (so not just for Urma to take publicity shots ), they might well still place one hind leg a bit behind the other, but their stifles, hocks and toplines might look sufficiently different for this old argument to become less polarised.

Jyl,

Both your dogs in my opinion represent the seventies rear angulation, again in my opinion if they add up slightly little more rear angulation they will represent the ideal which is 130-140 degrees