Is Tom van't Leefdaalhof the next Troll/Timmy in sport world? - Page 13

Avery, how about defense drive? Below medium?

@Avery Hill.....pretty much what I have seen...also I agree with you on the outcross part and that's why I have liked him with certain Czech lines or harded west lines. I don't perceive you as bad mouthing Tom, but rather making a mature balanced assessment based on extensive first hand knowledge. Thx

ziegenfarm i sent you a pm

I have heard a few say that Tom can produce smaller dogs,this can be a good thing with so many trying to breed great danes and breed over the standard, a dog size kept within or close to the standard is always going to be better suited for real life work,one better suited to work all day compared to the oversized that wants to go rest in the shade instead of doing work,someone else said they like to outcross Tom which i do myself but its not a must, its always best to improve the weak points of a dog no matter who the stud or dam that is ,I would also agree to bring in some hardness of nerves for certain branches of Tom lines using the hardest west german lines they can find while maintaning alot of the nice high prey drive that Tom is known for.

@Daryl they are 23 inches at withers but the smallest females I have ever seen "in total"
@Gusmanda defense drives are pronounced in Bomber dogs BUT I call it more bluff then "real" if you see them work they seem to
have great defense but are not a hard dog
I think they work best out of prey and can switch well to defense "when ready" this is not something you can rush with these lines you have to wait for it .... when you see it build on it If you rush it that dog will be ruined. Slow to mature so may take time to see "real defense drives"
In my Bandit pups they came out of womb with a heavy dose of defense but I think it was dam lines that carried this, top half is Fado Lutter grand daughter on bottom half carries Lewis von Malatesta  great grand daughter. So I believe the hardness is carried through this.
These pups where land sharks scary little sobs
I have breed this female to Bomber pup so we will see if it is Bandit or dam lines or possible combination
Also I have NO problem with small females I actually prefer them I am not looking to achieve "over size" dogs so not a problem for me that a female runs small
But I have no use for a week nerve bag that is hectic in drives so that side of the lines I don't like
But in total I love the lines and what they bring
And I also must clarify that this is all my "personal" experience not a steadfast rule only my personal experiences with these lines 
NO Tom bashing here

@ Avery Hill, I think without a doubt that Fado Lutter could be a contributing factor to the pups coming out in strong defense. The progeny of Fado that I have seen personally and people from Europe that I have talked ti say the same thing. Sometimes he produces dogs that are very very headstrong,(being diplomatic...lol) and of course Lewis gave good defense among other things....your comments make plenty sense.

Cliff/Avery...would you consider Asko vd Lutter a contributer of good defensive drive? Being as he and Fado have same motherline....I thought I'd ask....I have a nice Asko granddaughter out of a Jaro vom Ruhbachtal son. Jaro is a repeat breeding of Nick vom Heiligenbösch.
 

I dont think that Asko produced the strength of defense that Fado did. I have owned Asko progeny, worked with Fado progeny....all the Fado stuff was tuff!!!lol (doesn't mean there are some that arent, but it is a trait that I've found to be consistent), Asko to me depends a lot of the female line. I have seen good stuff out of Asko, but I have also seen nervy crap that he was close up in. If I wanted to add strong defense to a rock solid female....I would go with Fado hands down.

revisiting an exceptionally good discussion from about 5 years ago....the biggest problem of the breed: nerves
here is a link to that thread:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bulletins.read?mnr=153334


and a quote from cindy gieske regarding high prey breeding.  gieske shepherds has been sucessful in producing police service dogs.


 ""Yes, high prey DOES indeed mask poor nerve. In fact, a few of us are starting to think the low trigger that high prey dogs have (in other words how easily they are stimulated) might at times correlate to a 'weaker' nerve. So mating high prey to high prey can extinguish solid nerve traits (we are just beginning to form this concept). Maybe the 'highest prey' tiny 7w old pup will not be the best selection because of this. The caveat for this is the correct, hard, dominant male ; an excellent breeding type is most likely NOT a high point dog and definitley NOT a dog for a pet home or uneducated training in protection.""

this entire thread is well worth reading again and saving for future reference.
pjp

 ""

Some solid info in that thread....also some solid individuals posting information. You could see the trend back then beginning to manifest. This is the same thing I see at the police acadmies and training evaluations of dogs. Many dogs come to be evaluated by police with big time prey drive, and wonderful grips, but when you start introducing the stress of unknown, or being in a real fight with combatant, or environmental stressors, some of you would be surprised at how some of them wilt. Not all, but way too many these days. Yet they would have no problem on the Sch field because the dog becomes sensitized to the whole routine....even with a tough helper working the dog. The dog has figured out that the H&B helper isnt going to hurt them, that the escape bite is going to stop after running a certain distance, the long bite is going to have pretty uniform presentation and no deviation by the helper thus enabling them to launch comfortably. Do you really think these dogs haven't figured this out after years and years of the same training. Like Cindy says, over the top prey drive can mask nerve strength....seen it too many times. Half the people working dogs dont know difference in drives and nerve anyway. Now you can take a very strong prey driven dog and train it into a good patrol dog if it has solid nerves....but Sch doesnt fully expose the solid nerves in the way it is trained and the goals they are seeking. Its a good obedience foundation, for any dog with the imprinting, but there definitely is such a thing as a "sport" type dog though some dont want to admit this.