GSD breeder for ring sport? - Page 14

johann

I really don't see why it is a discussion  this subject if you don't understand that there are different types of dogs with different kinds of drive  and we people are all different in what we think is good or not so good, so I don't see why we are discussing this ,

You don't like exstreme drives in dogs I got the point like many of the breeders in scandinavia (not all) you like  a normal sport dog like a type like Lexus or Rosso  they are just not for me any of them

I don't believe that Schh is promotes the naturel selction of breeding dogs because it does not test the overall in dogs like some other programmes may do better like RING or KNPV (not saying that you should not use schh dogs in breeding ) because not every breeder is ecually skilled at selections because of genes not points I believe that the Tiekerhook kennel Koos he is good at pointing the dogs out that is naturelly born with it.

no dog is perfect but some come closer to perfect than others and what we each like is a hurricane all different

As for Vasco he has been used alot in germany not bruksmarkens monark like you wrote but who knows him beside the swedish themselves !, again the danish dont use Vaco  because they dont know his french lines but his lines have proven much more than those schh lines have most of the dogs have RING 3 and MDR 3 and so on they are stupid not to use this dog in breeding. they would rather use a  dog that has proven himself in schh that is the ddanish mark ask for the points not the  dog

ofcourse there are good dogs in schh but how many breeders are skilled enough to deside witch dog is genetical thee stronger dog in drive or is it the skilled handler ?? my big question

Quote: everyone still trying to defend which sport is best...or which breeder is breeding the best german Shepherd for ring, schutzhund,knvp...whatever....have we come to a consenses yet:-) 

I just like a good dog. 

all this talk about extreme dogs for breeding...
Extremes are what got the German Shepherd in trouble health/temperament wise....
I'd bet you won't see a breeder breeding to the lowest scoring dog anytime soon,,,and why would you?
I want a dog that wants to work WITH me....what is wrong with a dog that is acceptance of guidance without being dominated...if a dog wants to fight you for control...what good is he/she. I know plenty of breeders breeding quality dogs...and it has nothing to do with the sport venues...:-) Being a skilled breeder means knowing that no matter how many ring, shutzhund, whatever titles are on the paper....the dog is the dog.

From what I see....everyone is rolling the dice....

I just like a good dog. 

Smart man!

Who during training  works their dog for only the length of Part B?  For that matter, who trains the pattern?  Not me, and not anyone I train with.  Rest assured we train whether on our own or together as a group, every day, and for a lot longer than the length of "Part B" in a trial. 

My ball very rarely comes out any more.  That's the point, if you still need a ball once the dog is an adult then  you probably didn't do it right.  Some people never learn this, or don't get it, or don't know how to put away the ball, but that's on them, not necessarily the dogs they have.  Some dogs have plenty of drive but they have trained their handlers they must pay them continuously or they won't work.   Some dogs are shitters and don't have gas unless there is a ball, but this isn't the kind of dog I bother with. 

My point was and is, just because someone trains with a ball absolutely is no indication that the dog doesn't have a ton  of drive.

Perhaps this is just more arguing for arguments sake, but I just don't have time for it.  It could be that this is one of those things that when discussed face to face turns out people have a better understanding of one another.  It could be you you make assumptions about people, dogs and sports that you have nothing to do with.  In any case, and once more Jeff, you and I will have to agree to completely disagree with one another, and leave it at that. 

nothing is wrong with a dog that wants to work with you instead of against you but I don't want a dog that cant handle a correction without you have to build the dog up again

Neither would I, Myret.  Never had one, hope I never do.  We have some very hard dogs and very high drive dogs, all who benefit from being trained with balls or tugs as a form of reward.  Anyone who doubts it is welcome to come on out and see how it's done.





 

suenicc

agree

Hmm...I'm a little late to the thread and discussion.  This is about breeding GSD's for ringsport, not comparing GSD's to Malis.  Clearly every dog has his benefits and drawbacks; Ivan historically breeds Malis, many of which end up in Schutzhund; we don't really see that many dogs in the US competing for MR3 yet that are GSD's.

Judron, I guess in some part you were referring to me since I had posted an ad selling pups from our litter and since you had contacted me about buying a pup and picking it up at Masters - I never heard back from you, no worries...

We breed our dogs to compete in Ringsport. Will they do Schutzhund?  Sure - it's just not our preferred sport.  We prefer to breed for DRIVE and SOLID NERVES.  Not pretty looks necessarily, certainly not for aggression, but ideally for the best traits that allow them to do well in Ring.

Our girl, Nefer, is a bit unique.  Our friend Bernard Flinks paid us a huge compliment when offering to buy her.  Many others have as well.  She's a ton of *drive* for a working line shepherd, from Czech and DDR lines.  We titled her to an MR1 in the US and has 1 leg of her MR2, and we decided to breed her to the most appropriate male that had the drive and temperament to bring it, so our good friends Sharon Ronen and Stefan Juntke wanted to breed her to Sam Haboxer, the 2009 WUSV Champion and 2010 second place holder.  Sam is also a former Israeli military working dog. 

Sam is a great dog, and his trainers are exceptional and unique; we even had the privilege of meeting people who were specifically following him as a dog, and some, like Ann Dolan, DVG Schutzhund judge, complimented us by buying a puppy from us.  We're trying to work on producing better pups as best we can.

Disclaimer:  We have *never* titled a dog in Schutzhund.  We have previously handled and owned several dogs that were SchH3 and that's how we got into the sport.  We have made some great friends in years around the Schutzhund community, but never took the time to complete titles back to back.  Today, we train in Schutzhund (though we do not compete), but focus our time in Ringsport when we can.

Given a lack of Schutzhund clubs in our geography at the time, we focused on French Ring and Mondio Ring.

We're lucky enough to count quite a few trainers and competitors as mentors and friends, and have seen from the most serious compulsion type of training, to those who refuse to put a prong collar on their dog.

I will try to avoid the "showline" versus "working line" debate in this reply - I catch dogs every week in various clubs and frankly, I work harder to try to get highly prized, highly valued, expensive show dogs to do any work than the crappiest of working line dogs.  There are always exceptions.  To me, the dog either brings it or doesn't - many dogs in Schutzhund are sleeve suckers, and others are just too sleepy to care.  I don't see Schutzhund as that much of a test, temperament, agility or otherwise.   My opinion.  The heeling pattern is always the same, the helper is always behind blind 6, there are no real surprises and the dog is always cued to the same behavior.  My boy Viggo (Black USMRA MR1 dog that gets scant attention on occasion from me, and reminds me of how much more time and effort it takes to become a better trainer) will be starting in Schutzhund soon, all while continuing to train in Ringsport. 

Ringsport?

It's all about the pressure, as others have said.

From the Guard Affirme / Defense, to the Face Attack, the Object Guard, Stop Attack, or accessory attacks, when compared to a simple flee attack, or a blind search where the helper is always behind blind 6

Quote: we will never agree on this subject that is why people are getting a mal today because of those breeders that only breeds the dogs for schh and show they havent proven a thing can they work in exstreme enviroment,can they hold the drive for a long time , can the manage hars corrections without loosing drive and so on and many cannot handle these things and have never been tested before they where bred  both females and males.can they jump high jumps .
This is a very good statement. It really is not about the sport for me, it is what Myret has said. This is what I want to produce. I want to get to the point where I can sell a pup to a ringsport home with confidence that the pup is going to be physically and mentally able to do it.

Quote: I want a dog that wants to work WITH me....what is wrong with a dog that is acceptance of guidance without being dominated...if a dog wants to fight you for control...what good is he/she.

I want some of that. I don't want all of that, for sure.

Quote: From what I see....everyone is rolling the dice....

I feel like this everyday. Some days all I see on these boards is non breeders having their opinions on things that are rather etheral, however the hell you spell that. That is cool and all, but I would rather hear from the serious breeders who have bailed out of their disgust with the pet people on here. I KNOW they are still reading, as this shit is like a 5 car pileup on the highway. Cannot help but to look at it.


Quote: My point was and is, just because someone trains with a ball absolutely is no indication that the dog doesn't have a ton  of drive.

They all have drive, but if you have to condition a response with a ball to get past the thresholds every time then you are breeding to fit a training program... sorta. I would like to see what would happen if we took the ball away from people and gave them a pup to train. That is where you test a breeding program.

Quote:  In any case, and once more Jeff, you and I will have to agree to completely disagree with one another, and leave it at that. 

I am not sure how to explain to you what I am saying. Get a pup, never bring out a ball to "bring it into drive" and see if the pups thresholds don't make a mess of your training. That is all I am saying.