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by Videx on 16 December 2010 - 10:12
"One other thought - this test can be done as soon as the pup has been identified by tattoo or micro-chip - so you can make this your first test and avoid the cost of the others if the result isn't what you were after.
4ml is a lot (apparently) from a puppy so you could go for 1 or 2 ml if you are doing an early test.
I repeat that the beauty of this test is that you can do it very early and be able to make a decision to place a pup in a companion home before you get too attached!
Why test a pup?
I have just tested two pups at age 10 weeks. One I hope to keep if everything comes together, the other is going into a show home potentially to be bred from. The new owner and I decided that we would test at this stage so that we can decide what we want to do based on the results of the test - before we have become hugely attached to the pups (hard to do but everyone who breeds to show knows you try to remain a little bit objective in the early stages as there is so much needs to develop in the right way) and before we pay out for the other tests etc if the pups are not going to be bred from.
It is now part of my sales contract that I will not lift a breeding endorsement unless a clear PD result is obtained. In case anyone questions me in future - that does not mean that I will not breed from my carrier bitch - but I have some control over her pups which I do not over pups bred by others."
by Abby Normal on 16 December 2010 - 10:12
I think you are getting confused. My dog with AF and severe HD was many years ago, and largely down to my inexperience at that time, I blame no-one but me for that and never have. So I feel no bitterness about it.
My dogs since then haven't been 'duffers' as you put it, and I couldn't be happier with the dogs I have had since then, although one had moderate HD which I have always accepted can happen to anyone if the dogs in the pedigree have had good hip scores. (Think you will find this to be true if you cast your mind back)
My interest in health in dogs, and particularly the GSD certainly began with the experience I had with my first, when I began researching how and where to get a well bred and healthy dog. My interest has been maintained since then, as I would like to think that dog breeding is becoming more enlightened and that health is continually being improved.
by Penny on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
Have had a very frustrating time online and offline with a diffy internet server - so apologies that my reply to David is a little late, but nevertheless I think necessary in case people thought I had gone quiest on the subject of "doing" rather than "Talking" as suggested
This is what I wrote ... below, although one little part is now not possible, as Davids details on this condition have in fact been removed from the Videx site.
Yes, I did begin personal dialogue David, but for information from you, and genuinely, as I feel sure you must have valid reasons for your thoughts on this testing, as you seem so avidly against it! Is it wrong to ask for those exact reasons, to add to the debate? I have often asked your opinions in the past, and had much valuable information given to me. , but hey - I can shrug off your post, in order to get the thread back on line. So I will give you my answers.
You are interested in when I will begin testing . Dessie is booked in next week, at Glenthorne Vets Uttoxeter as she is due to be mated at her next season having missed. I will download the form from your website,(cant now of course, its gone) Dayna will be tested after Xmas, as she also missed to her sire, and I can hopefully spread my cost a little as she doesn`t usually come in to season as quickly as Dessie. My little dog, as stated will be done at 6 months of age (2 months time) There ends my breeding programme at this time. I will let you know the results of Dessie as soon as I have them.
You then say: "PD dna TEST ALL of your dogs. By the way I JRD dna test ALL of mine!
You see Mo, saying you will do something and then actually doing it, is the real measure."
Yes, agreed - which is why I kept quiet on this thread for so long - it would have been easy to jump right in at the top with Shirley and agree for the sake of her being my daughter, but I wanted the information first that she was gathering, just in case it was a red herring. It wasnt. JRD - Continued....
by kesyra on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
One other thought - this test can be done as soon as the pup has been identified by tattoo or micro-chip - so you can make this your first test and avoid the cost of the others if the result isn't what you were after.
I am sure that anyone who's dog was tested as a carrier would still love them and be proud of them but personally I don't think I would have the interest in showing an animal that I couldn't breed from. I repeat that the beauty of this test is that you can do it very early and be able to make a decision to place a pup in a companion home before you get too attached!
Unfortunately, I think this thread has been counterproductive and only made breeders more wary of making their results public, or of even testing at all, because the implications are there that dwarf carriers should be avoided.
I'd put money on the fact, that IF a well known and well used top producing sire was tested, found to be a carrier and the results made public, that news would be round that GSD grapevine faster than lightening. I'd also bet that many breeders would avoid using him even if their bitches tested clear.
The problem is that breeders will happily carry on using dogs and bitches who produce EPI, AF, auto immune skin problems and bowel disorders, because the pups appear normal, but these pups will suffer later on...and so will their doting owners. These pups may also go on to be bred from themselves, therefore exacerbating the problem. We have never had so many immune problems in the breed.
The dwarf pup is easily identified, it must not be passed on, it is not bred from. Yes, the breeder will have to make the choice to put the pup to sleep or keep it themselves, but is that not the same with other congenital abnormalities, such as cleft palates and heart defects?
Many are back tracking and saying that carriers may be mated to clear...and this is good advice if it is used wisely.
by Penny on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
It may not be a good enough reason, but its my reason.
I took on board what you said re JRD and it made sense. I sent for the testing kits, and took advantage of the cut price offer - although, my medical mind did feel it was a little odd for an analytical laboratory to be giving "cut price offers" and hoped it was for the benefit of getting lots of dogs tested.
I then saw the A4 plain paper that the results of others got with no identification of dogs necessary. I was amazed. It was literally a plain piece of A4 paper with the results written on “tested positive/tested negative” and the word (probable/possible) by the side of the dogs name. It was also open to fraud, as the dogs didnt have any way of firm identification and done by us owners in our own home. It was flawed and had no letter-heading on the paper as to where it had come from, just the name of the lady that did the test. It also had no analytical information on there, just the dogs name, the result of the test, and the possible/probably word written by the side. to me, thats not professional and correct.
Then I looked again, and wondered if I was being harsh, and I tried to find other laboratories that were doing this test with any knowledge.... not one, every vet told me it was not done ! Every lab tried said they didnt do it !
I didnt stop there, I contacted the lady. This was the reason that my testing kits are still in the drawer at home, and you can have them free of charge if you wish. She was rude, offensive, even used bad language. I have worked with everyone from professors to street-sweepers, and didnt expect that from a laboratory professor or the like. She didnt explain why the sheet was as it was, she ranted. She accused me of joining others in a campaign against her - why on earth would anyone do that?
No. I lost faith, but until this very day, I have not divulged this, I have kept totally quiet, as its your prerogative to do this test if you like, and I shall carry on until I find a method of identifying the dogs leaving no questions unanswered. A test that I can say was taken by an independant person, and my dog was identifiable, or until this test becomes the norm to do, other than by one laboratory.
Perhaps I am out of touch on that now, are any other places doing it?
– I would consider it if so, but I certainly wouldn’t go back to the lab that gave me such a negative feeling on it all. I do admire you for doing it, and have always upheld you in that – but for me – its not possible unless I know its undeniably genuine from the lab. Mo.
by Penny on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
You state - , you and Shirley have between you managed to cover every available option from :- Testing every puppy bred and Withdrawing every carrier from stud WRONG- TO - Mating clear females to clear malesCORRECT Carrier females to clear males CORRECTand the latest being to mate clear females to untested males WHATS NEW with even a hint there is now a possibility you would consider mating carrier female to an untested German male!!.HINT - THAT WORD BOTHERS ME Well thats every option covered then!! Still supported by AbbyNorm though I see
Its very clear and very simple. Everyone else appears to understand whether they agree or not, so I`ll write it down once more for you,
test your male/female and be selective - eventually will lead to eradication in breeding of people who care.
we cant take into consideration people who dont care, because neither do they test for anything, so strike them out of the equasion, although if they pick up a puppy from the "carers" breeding by some chance its lessened the chance.
Are you sure Sue, that you are not poking at this thread for another very digress reason. I am sure that you are, and have been sure since your first post, so lets not get into silly tit for tat, its not my style, but its not my style for under-handed comments either. If I knew AbbyNormal, I would tell you. I wouldnt tell you the identity if I hadnt been given permission to do so, but I would certainly tell you that I knew who the person was. How many years have you known me Sue? Mo.
by missbeeb on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
Another excellent post Katrina!
This thread has been counterproductive because of the attitude and ignorance of a few. It should simply have been "bumped" without the shitty goads and threats.
Immune problems in our breed, indeed, every breed, are on the increase. I would really like to hear other opinions on this.
Vaccine damage, wormer damage and the what we feed our dogs... how much of a role do these things play?
Worth starting a good thread on this?
by Penny on 16 December 2010 - 11:12
agree with Barbara, Katrina`s both posts are excellent, and she identifies that perhaps earlier posts were misleading in the way they were put, and thankfully knows Shirley better than to assume.
I think that immunity problems are seeming to increase now, in all breeds from what I see and hear on the training school side of things.... and also females coming in to season ! Used to be 6 monthly or thereabouts, and mated at certain times within a day or two - but now, even a dinasaur like me has had to result to blood testing, as females are standing at the most ridiculous periods of their season, long gone are the times when you could show your stud dog the girl and he would tell you when to take her to be mated.... well, possibly not gone, but not as reliable any more. bitches missing too, so many now, and is this to do with the period they were mated, perhaps their correct ovulation is not fertile, even though ovulation has taken place.... a whole new thread, perhaps I shouldnt have digressed, but you are right, its very interested. A very experienced lady in our breed puts it down to the feedstuffs, and tampering that food has now before it gets into the food chain... Mo.
by hutch on 16 December 2010 - 12:12
I apologise if my posts were mis-leading or badly worded.
The point I was making about testing early was that you can have the result available to you whilst you are considering whether or not to spend the money on other tests as part of the bigger picture that goes into such a decision before breeding.
The point about the restriction that I am putting into my contract is purely going to affect those who want to breed from one of my puppies and gives me the option to make sure that the test result will be used in decision making.
I believe that this should be one of the health tests that are performed on animals which we intend to breed from and we should avoid carrier to carrier matings. Time will tell if a big enough proportion of the stud dog population is tested to make that feasible.
Shirley
by bazza on 16 December 2010 - 19:12
Thread Title..HOLLEIA HIP SCORES, Your post on the 18 Aug 2010 and I quote " I HAVE A DOG WITH HD, WITH A SCORE OF 48"
Thread Title... SUPPLEMENT FOR DYSPLASIA, Your post 23 Aug 2010,
I'VE RESEARCHED HD OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS SINCE I HAD MY FIRST GSD WITH HD.
Thread Title... BREED AVERAGE, Your post, I HAVE A DOG WITH A HIP SCORE OF 48.
And finally on this very thread you posted you HAVE a dog with AF. Now to anyone reading this you have had in the past a dog with HD, you have one or more now with a score of 48 and AF. Who's confused Abby? You really should try and remember what you have previously posted. Confused? or just a tall tale teller? lol.
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