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by Paul Garrison on 25 March 2014 - 23:03
Most of what you put up there are show dogs. The Kirschental dog for the most part is as modern as you get with some of them more versatile then the rest. The Fullers were very involved is sheep herding and titling to HGH.But mostly show dogs of the time. They were not know for their protection type dogs including polic and military. BUT all in all well put together dogs.
by Paul Garrison on 25 March 2014 - 23:03
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=296-seffe-vom-busecker-schlo
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1720-sirk-vom-busecker-schlo
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=359-greif-vom-herkulesblick
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1462-jago-von-den-jungen-hansen
These are old style GSD back when they were real dogs.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1720-sirk-vom-busecker-schlo
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=359-greif-vom-herkulesblick
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1462-jago-von-den-jungen-hansen
These are old style GSD back when they were real dogs.
by Smiley on 25 March 2014 - 23:03
Paul...thank you!! Wouldn't herding dogs be considered working dogs? Or did you mean like police type?
What do you think of that dog Jack I posted? Too heavy for your taste or do you like him?
He looks classic to me and well built and looks to be a good sport dog!
Sun said his female line is known to be hard, tough dogs- right up your alley!! you should contact that K kennel for a bitch!! *grin*
What do you think of that dog Jack I posted? Too heavy for your taste or do you like him?
He looks classic to me and well built and looks to be a good sport dog!
Sun said his female line is known to be hard, tough dogs- right up your alley!! you should contact that K kennel for a bitch!! *grin*
by Paul Garrison on 26 March 2014 - 00:03
Herding is working. It is a little hard for me to get excited about herding with the GSD and sheep. If you want to test your HGH dog put them on some rank cow calf pairs in a corral. I have a stock dog program and would not dream of taking a high dollar GSD out there. I have seen dogs get kicked in the head and be dead before they hit the ground.
Jack he looks fine, I like the bottom side of his pedigree, the top not so much. I have had several Karthago dogs that were ok to good. But rummers say a lot about kennels that my be true and my not be. A hard to dog to one my be a pussy to another. I would take another dog from the Karthago kennel but would not even look at a Half son if he could not be tested and tested hard.
I prefer individuals that have what I want because NO KENNEL IN THE WORLD produces one type of dog. They all have their fair share of shit. Including me.
Jack he looks fine, I like the bottom side of his pedigree, the top not so much. I have had several Karthago dogs that were ok to good. But rummers say a lot about kennels that my be true and my not be. A hard to dog to one my be a pussy to another. I would take another dog from the Karthago kennel but would not even look at a Half son if he could not be tested and tested hard.
I prefer individuals that have what I want because NO KENNEL IN THE WORLD produces one type of dog. They all have their fair share of shit. Including me.
by susie on 26 March 2014 - 00:03
"I prefer individuals that have what I want because NO KENNEL IN THE WORLD produces one type of dog. They all have their fair share of shit. Including me."
Thank you!
A kennel name is no dog, most of the time not even a bloodline. In the best case out of a well known kennel name you are able to recognize the goal of the breeder.
This discussion is on page 13 now, but at least I still don´t know what you want to do with your "old -style" dog ?
Do you want to buy a pup or are you looking for a stud? sorry, if I overread this part.
Thank you!
A kennel name is no dog, most of the time not even a bloodline. In the best case out of a well known kennel name you are able to recognize the goal of the breeder.
This discussion is on page 13 now, but at least I still don´t know what you want to do with your "old -style" dog ?
Do you want to buy a pup or are you looking for a stud? sorry, if I overread this part.
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 01:03
Paul, I love the look of the dogs you linked!!! But, I still want a real dog that can be a good family dog and not kill every stray kid that runs in the yard!!! Just sayin'!! 
Susie..I'm just looking for current dogs in modern breeding programs that look classic (not overdone with angulation, roach, wobbly hocks, tons of bone, etc or, conversely, lacking in type) and are versatile, athletic, and healthy with strong nerves and a balanced temperament- able to do any work asked of them.
All I see are "speialists"...IPO dogs, show dogs, akc performance dogs, service dogs. I want to find programs that still cherish this old style versatile GSD in looks, temperament, health, and working ability.
Susie..I'm just looking for current dogs in modern breeding programs that look classic (not overdone with angulation, roach, wobbly hocks, tons of bone, etc or, conversely, lacking in type) and are versatile, athletic, and healthy with strong nerves and a balanced temperament- able to do any work asked of them.
All I see are "speialists"...IPO dogs, show dogs, akc performance dogs, service dogs. I want to find programs that still cherish this old style versatile GSD in looks, temperament, health, and working ability.
by susie on 26 March 2014 - 09:03
You can´t turn back the hands of time... from the sixties till today there were bred 8 - 15 generations of dogs.
Even if we talk about 10 generations only, that´s like you are talking about your own ancestors born in 1800 or earlier.
I´m confused, because you started with ASLs, went over to workinglines, looked at showlines (current Kirshental dogs ) and went back to workinglines.
I think you are looking for a medium-drive, normally built German Shepherd.
That said conformation wise you might look into workinglines ( they are usually bred later=less generations, and breeders don´t tend to care about trends that much ),
afterwards into dogs you like ( not known for handler aggressiveness, but proven working abilities ) and then personally watch and interact with a litter you like, picking up a medium drive pup.
There are "normal" puppies in almost every litter, and workingline breeders will be glad to get pups with less drives into a good home.
A dog with good nerves and medium drives is able to do almost everything, it might not be the best in any task, but absolutely fine at home and for fun/sport.
If you want to be 100 % sure about temperament and conformation, go with a youngster somewhere between 6 and 10 months old.
Health? Try to find lines with a high longevity, x-rayed in front and rear.
Afterwards: Fingers crossed - shit happens, even if you made all of your homework - that´s nature.
Even if we talk about 10 generations only, that´s like you are talking about your own ancestors born in 1800 or earlier.
I´m confused, because you started with ASLs, went over to workinglines, looked at showlines (current Kirshental dogs ) and went back to workinglines.
I think you are looking for a medium-drive, normally built German Shepherd.
That said conformation wise you might look into workinglines ( they are usually bred later=less generations, and breeders don´t tend to care about trends that much ),
afterwards into dogs you like ( not known for handler aggressiveness, but proven working abilities ) and then personally watch and interact with a litter you like, picking up a medium drive pup.
There are "normal" puppies in almost every litter, and workingline breeders will be glad to get pups with less drives into a good home.
A dog with good nerves and medium drives is able to do almost everything, it might not be the best in any task, but absolutely fine at home and for fun/sport.
If you want to be 100 % sure about temperament and conformation, go with a youngster somewhere between 6 and 10 months old.
Health? Try to find lines with a high longevity, x-rayed in front and rear.
Afterwards: Fingers crossed - shit happens, even if you made all of your homework - that´s nature.
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 12:03
Susie......Good advice!!! Yes, I started my search looking for old ASL lines. But, then discovered they were really old german lines. Then, I posted some dogs that had the classic old style look I like. However, I own and appreciate a "working line" type of dog. So, yeah, I guess I jumped around a bit...sorry about that!! I was kind of thinking out loud and trying to wade through my thoughts!!
I still wonder if there are a lot of working line dogs (able to do IPO, Military, police, service, herding) that still look like the classic black/tan GSD dogs including coat (not the super short coat) and have that all around, solid temperament that Sun, Gustav, Joan, and others mentioned in dogs they grew up with (as I am sure the dogs they remember where the classic looking GSD as opposed to sables or blacks). To be honest, I was born in 1974 and I remember the classic Rin Tin Tin type of GSD as well as a kid. It was the classic type (meaning the black/tan saddle) that we saw with policeman; in the military; and as guide dogs. In fact, my Mom had a military GSD (as her husband was military police) when they were stationed overseas. I will have to dig up pictures but I remember him as a huge, big boned black/tan named Bruno. I have a suspicion that the "working line" black/tans might trace to different genetic bloodlines as the majority of working line dogs. Perhaps, they blend several lines. Not to open another can of worms but....my first GSD as a child was an unregistered pup that I got from a breeder as a cull because he, mysteriously, popped out white much to her horror!! That is why..to this day..I have no problem with whites as these colors must be part of our breeds heritage to just pop out, randomly, but that doesn't make the dog any less of a GSD. Ok....off that now...sorry!!
Kyle...I apologize as I had missed your link. I did go back and read the article and found it quite interesting! Thank you for posting!
Really great discussion everyone!!! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and helping me try to work out some ideas out what the german shepherd is now; where it came from; and what it will be in future......much appreciated!!!!
Kind Regards,
Sarah Minsk
I still wonder if there are a lot of working line dogs (able to do IPO, Military, police, service, herding) that still look like the classic black/tan GSD dogs including coat (not the super short coat) and have that all around, solid temperament that Sun, Gustav, Joan, and others mentioned in dogs they grew up with (as I am sure the dogs they remember where the classic looking GSD as opposed to sables or blacks). To be honest, I was born in 1974 and I remember the classic Rin Tin Tin type of GSD as well as a kid. It was the classic type (meaning the black/tan saddle) that we saw with policeman; in the military; and as guide dogs. In fact, my Mom had a military GSD (as her husband was military police) when they were stationed overseas. I will have to dig up pictures but I remember him as a huge, big boned black/tan named Bruno. I have a suspicion that the "working line" black/tans might trace to different genetic bloodlines as the majority of working line dogs. Perhaps, they blend several lines. Not to open another can of worms but....my first GSD as a child was an unregistered pup that I got from a breeder as a cull because he, mysteriously, popped out white much to her horror!! That is why..to this day..I have no problem with whites as these colors must be part of our breeds heritage to just pop out, randomly, but that doesn't make the dog any less of a GSD. Ok....off that now...sorry!!
Kyle...I apologize as I had missed your link. I did go back and read the article and found it quite interesting! Thank you for posting!
Really great discussion everyone!!! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and helping me try to work out some ideas out what the german shepherd is now; where it came from; and what it will be in future......much appreciated!!!!
Kind Regards,
Sarah Minsk
by mollyandjack on 26 March 2014 - 12:03
Wasn't the original Rin Tin Tin a sable??
by Smiley on 26 March 2014 - 13:03
Oh, I did wonder one other thing.....
Paul, Gustav, Sun, Joan, and others.....do you find that the majority of past dogs had more Defense Drive. My bitch is, admittedly, more prey drive. Have you seen a shift from Defense drive towards heavily prey driven dogs? If so, why do you think the shift occurred? What would the purpose of having more prey over defense be?
Thank you,
Sarah
Paul, Gustav, Sun, Joan, and others.....do you find that the majority of past dogs had more Defense Drive. My bitch is, admittedly, more prey drive. Have you seen a shift from Defense drive towards heavily prey driven dogs? If so, why do you think the shift occurred? What would the purpose of having more prey over defense be?
Thank you,
Sarah
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