showline bred with workingline - Page 40

So what "disciplined" showline breeder is going to "remedy" our terrible plight?.  Who will be first to train and trial amongst workinglines, to begin to understand what their dogs lack?  Will they perhaps then get that it's not in the least bit worth the effort?

If you want an attractive workingline dog, I would instead suggest going to a workingline breeder that consistently produces attractive workingdogs.  Kennels Salztalblick or Salztal-Höhe might be a good choice.

You can't "water-up" those showlines to make them worth anymore than a mediocre-blah-workingdog, anyway.  Is it the saddlebacked black & tan coat what you can't give up?  What is it you fear to lose, really?!  Just trash those lines, and convert to the true german shepherd, the "last of a dying breed", or get the hell out of the way.

Twenty pages now, and not one good point in the argument ":for" sealing the rift between working and show.  After all, the thing that separates us, if you recall, is where your priorities lie.  And the people that helped make showlines such a disaster, want to make their mark on the rest of the breed?  Hasn't enough damage been caused?

It seems that there are more SL dogs than working-lines in the market and both have breeders of all kinds. It is funny that only the WL's folks get offended by this, as the SL crowd is just as much, if not more, to blame for the split . As you may know, the Universal Sieger title was issued to dogs of both WL and SL¿s, so they've already competed. It is not just the question of aesthetics, but of balance. While I agree that there are many WL kennels like ¿Salztalblick or Salztal-Höhe¿ that produce fine dogs, I would prefer the kinds of dogs available before the lines split. Coloring is not an issue, at least with me, and to make the point, the most recent bloodline dog is Alf vom Körnersee (DOB: 04/14/1983), way before the ¿true german shepherd¿ WL breeders so much tout¿ In other words, neither WL¿s or SL¿s has really been able to coin a bloodline dog since the split took full effect and the reason would appear to be that neither produces a dog that is complete enough to garner the distinction. If you want to continue buying dogs that have a few salient traits, that is fine, but some of us would like to see some of the GSD return to a more complete and versatile dog as it was before the split.

It is not realistic to put the genie back into the bottle.  The best we can hope for is decision making by the top WL competitors/breeders to try and breed a GSD with better structure ie better proportions and conformation, or for those WL owners who have a top placing profung GSD to be willing to spend the extra time and effort showing the dog in the zuchtschaus, and being willing to stud their dog to interested SL folks who have good bitches they want to breed for better temperament. 

There is always a chance that a WL superstar could emerge that could bridge the gap of WL back closer to the standard for structure and movement.  This would be a fortunate break for the breed, maybe a other top producer like Frei Gugge who was a sensation GSD in all manner and was a prepotent sire of deep quality.

I know that if I was breeding GSDs, I would use Ellute Mohnweise and his sons in my breeding program. There are others which can if bered correctly produce superb working temperament and good overall conformation.

In the meantime, one can only hope that breeders, both WL and SL dedicate themselves to attempting to move as close to the standard as they can without destroying their chances of placing at least moderately high in the sport they are in.  As long as there is a bifurcation of the GSD sport into zuchtschau and profung you will necessarily see a bifurcation of the breed in these two somewhat divergent directions, which itself is a bypraoduct of the inctredible levels of competition one ses in these two separate GSD SV dog sports.

 Quote: The best we can hope for is decision making by the top WL competitors/breeders to try and breed a GSD with better structure ie better proportions and conformation,

I don't see anything wrong with their conformation. Are you saying that they should look more like an incorrect show line dog ? How many have actually worked their showlines in ring or something other than goofy Sch ? I look at their structure, and the few dogs that have that conformation that had some juice broke down. Their heart wouldn't let them quit, but their body structure failed them miserably.

The working line structure is the correct structure. How hard is that to understand ? It is the structure that has held up to the stress of the work, which is what the breed is about. 

All I hear is speculation on the part of the show line stuff. This needs to be this way for that, bla bla bla, but no actual experience. 

I put some of these showlines on a bungee, and lets see how fast their backs go out. It will be like an experiment.

Preston,

Your words are a treat for the soul, thank you.

Ibrahim

I agree my working dogs need to have a more roach in their topline in order to work better. This surely would help them go all day and night without slowing down. I'm now looking for a S/L to breed to any suggestions on a stud?

My stud requirements are as follows.

Weak nerves
Narrow skull
HD( I will consider borderline however)
Back must look like a boomerang
Hocks must drag

PM me if you have what I'm looking for.

Thanks

Adam

Preston's is, as usual, a voice of clear headed logic. Where most of the WL-defenders make it an all or nothing argument in favor of their dog's physical style and forget that the resulting SL/WL cross would be closer in appearance and temperament to WL's than to today's SL dogs. However, one has only to peruse some of the WL's puppy classifieds to see that they are succumbing to the same trap that SL's did. Instead of the floating gait, they are going for big, blocky heads and a few other traits. This is likely to result in another genetic bottleneck, just like it has happened to the SL's where it is a task to find a good prospect for show, sport or breeding that is not a Canto or Quanto bloodline. Ideally, one would opt for a KKL-1 show-line female with excellent drive and temperament (courage and bidability) and breed her with a top WL male of equal or better conformation, temperament and drives. IMPO, color is not a big deal and the raochback is a relatively recent development. The dogs that one sees used as examples were of a much less pronounced and more correct conformation.

Charlie,

 Is the confirmation of all W/L's that far away from the standard look of the old dogs you speak of? Can you find an example of a good W/L and post it along with the perfect example of a S/L? I keep looking at the dogs from the 40's, 50's, 60's and find most (not all)resemble modern W/L dogs more than S/L. Again you keep making this same argument about finding a top notch S/L to breed to a W/L for balance. I guarantee you will find several working dogs that meet your ideal confirmation with out the need for a cross. It seems to me that this ideal shepherd you have in mind is a theory and has no real substance behind it. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I would love to see the examples.

 Please correct me if I am mistaken,

The founder of the GSD and his fellow friends put down a standard for the GSD they wished the future GSD will fulfill (reach) one day by selective breeding of the foundation dogs at the time and their offspring in future.
If the above is correct then no one can claim that dogs from 60, 70s etc had the right anatomy or better anatomy of today, one can claim that character, temperament, working ability etc was better but not the structure and anatomy.
And I am not saying either the anatomy today is better or worse. Some work breeders claim that the dogs they produce at present are as good if not better than those in the 50s ... 60s   etc and tell you what I do believe one of of those breeders who say this.

Ibrahim