This is a placeholder text
Group text
by paulie on 29 September 2009 - 22:09
I am of the opinion that some time in the not too distant future, the current blood lines being perpetuated in Germany will lead to the abandonment of the courage test at the Sieger show. I make this statement because i feel that the matings which will inevitabley will take place between the progeny of Zamp and Vegas will erode the very basic protection instinct that breeders have come to expect over the last hundred or so years, I do not wish to denigrate any animal, but we all know the pit falls, but still rush like Lemmings to emulate the German breeders, even though it will perpetuate the problem.
Mackenzie makes a very valid point regarding British breeders taking their females to the top dogs, without achieving the same results as our German friends, my own opinion, and i may be a million miles off target ,is that quite a number of our breeders have lost their mother lines, turning instead to German females hoping to find the Philosophers stone,only to find that you cant turn Lead into Gold, but have in most cases paradoxically managed to do the complete opposite.
The time it will take to undo the damage being done to our breed will be the deciding factor when people have to choose whether to carry on, or persue another hobby, now is'nt that a sad thing to have to contemplate.
Kind Regards.
Paul Rattigan.
by Mackenzie on 30 September 2009 - 06:09
We are, however, digressing from the UK situation although what happens in Germany does have an effect in Britain. There is no real direction as to the way forward for the breeding families in the UK. Everyone does their own thing and so it goes on. The breed Surveyors, assuming that they have enough experience, should be collectively giving direction by making available their observations regarding the traits passed on by sires and dams, particularly in the character and workability department. A breed survey form in itself is just a question and answer system and the real benefit comes from surveyors enlarging, where necessary, on one point or another. I do not know how many surveyors in the UK have working experience but without this showline surveyors experience alone is not enough.
When we look at the breeding males in the UK how many, outside of their own kennel, get more than, say, twenty studs a year? I suspect not many, if any. In fact when we look at the number of litters produced how many males are used in that production with emphasis on the number of males used to outside kennels.
I would like to see more experienced breeders commenting on the future of the breed and I hope that they will do so now that this thread is moving in the right direction.
Mackenzie
by jaymesie51 on 30 September 2009 - 07:09
Jim h
by SHERNAA on 30 September 2009 - 08:09
You state
"Where the breed is going in the UK I am afraid that I have no idea. Although many females are being taken to top bloodlines they are not really producing that well and, therefore, I think that the breeders are more concerned with the male Sieger placing than whether the male and his breeding family is suited to the female and her breeding family."
I would like to say that we have taken our females to Top Bloodlines and even before they were VA status, we always match our Females to the Males, and by the quality we have in our Kennel it has worked as they are what we are looking for in a German shepherd Dog, some of our dogs may not have hit the show ring yet, but this also all comes at a very high expense. To say that females are not really producing is harsh, for us our Female Rena is one of the Top Producing females in the UK as far as we are concerned, and everytime we take her to Germany, the Germans think she is in a class of her own, and out of her 3 litters she has always produced.
I also have to dissagree with Pauls statment of Vegas and Zamp progeny stating that they may loose their Basic Protection Instinct, to me if anything Vegas line would compliment the Zamp line for Courage. But in our Kennel we would never mix the Zamp and Vegas line together for other reasons.
Also the Females we take to Germany are all Home Bred Females, abar one Female, and we would never change this, our Females in our Kennel are just as good or even better then the Females that are brought in for Breeding its just we haven't got the ALL German Blueprint which is what the majority of Breeders in the UK look for.
There are also a couple of other Kennels in the UK that take their Home Bred Females to Top Bloodlines and have also produced, so this could only be good for the Bred in the UK.
Everybody knows you can not get the Perfect Dog but you can only try.
Kerry
by zacsmum on 30 September 2009 - 08:09
I agree with Paul to a degree about basic instincts being bred out if we are not careful, but I also think it is down to the breeders who are using Zamp, Vegas et al to ensure that the progeny produced from these matings is sold to the right homes who will nurture those instincts properly and not just to sofa dog homes where natural instincts are wasted save for two laps of a show ring on a sunny day! People who take the time, trouble and expense to utilise their dogs natural working instincts should be rewarded and recognised.
JMHO!
Have a good day all.
by Mackenzie on 30 September 2009 - 08:09
When we look at what the breed is already doing on a voluntary basis and, what it proposes for the future of the breed, the benefits of these suggestions can only enhance our reputation and that of the KC following the bad publicity that they have been receiving.
To SHERNAA
When I talk of females not producing I am referring to the overall situation. Some kennels will get it right and get good results. The experience of Zamp in Germany and other Countries is that the production from him is character weakness and a reluctance to work. The Blueprint for the future is always work in progress, however, although no guarantee to success, the Körbuch provides much useful information for those willing to scour through it. Also, unless you know them really, really well do believe everything on face value the Germans tell you, they are selling a product. Many thanks for your contribution and, I wish you continued success with your breeding programme.
Let us also have more contributions about the dogs themselves and the way forward on the breeding front.
Mackenzie
by SHERNAA on 30 September 2009 - 10:09
Sorry, just got to pick you up on one point of what you said about the Germans selling a product. They don't need to sell anything as when a male in the class of Vegas, Bojan, Agassi, Ober, And Dux, (Dogs which we have used) when they reach 2 Years old, Show People/Breeders are queing to get on these dogs, they don't need to sell the Dog, in my opinion.
Of course we are well aware of the Zamp line, but there you have to get your pairing of Breeding Partners right to correct this.
I have to say even in the UK, and albeit Germany or the rest of Europe you have to make your own judgement on Face Values or 'Hear Say'.
Kind Regards
Kerry
by Mackenzie on 30 September 2009 - 10:09
I agree with you when you comment on the Zamp family and people making their own judgement. The problem is that too many people are led into an opinion on particular animals. Also, there will always be a queque to use the new kids on the block (to generalize) but even at two years of age the dog is not fully mature and they will have insufficient progeny on the ground. The progeny from dogs of two years can only be at best very promising. Historically there has been many top dogs both Auslese and top V who have given nothing. Where are the progeny from Nando Gollerweiher, Quantum Fiemereck, Dux Jabora? Going back many years Tell Grossen Sand only gave one good male (Fanto Hirschel) although he was 4 times VA and Vice Sieger twice, his sister Tina was twice Siegerin but produced nothing. Would you consider using Zony V26 at Ulm this year for example?
When you look at the top males how many are solving today's problems in the breed. They all carry the gene for size to name only one.
Kind regards
Mackenzie
by Sue B on 30 September 2009 - 11:09
Hi All,
Putting things into perspective, as I have said before, "Some people are Dog Breeders whilst others are just Breeders of Dogs", of which there is and always will be a very fundamental difference. Still repeating myself, I remind everyone our breed is supposed to be versatile, that means we have to breed dogs that are suitable and fitting to be calm, loveable companions, PAT dogs, Search and Rescue, Sheep Herders etc, a trait some over-hypo - high drive 'sport dogs' no longer possess. This is not meant as a critism but an observation and not all dogs of a working bred litter make the grade as hard drive protection dogs, but dont take my word for it just ask the Metpol dog breeding section. I do agree that a dog at either end of the scale are not ideally correct, but remember we are dealing with livestock not robots. However, for a variety of reasons I am reluctant to delve much further into this disscussion, one reason being the fact that I have already submitted written views on many of the issues raised here to Dog World as was requested when the Editor asked me to contribute to the papers Sieger Supplement due out 9th October. So, for that reason alone, it is only right and proper, I keep my views here to a minimum.
However before I go I would like to ask McKenzie with what proof he based his earlier statements? For the record, based on this years Sieger Show results, of the 36 adults submitted into Vegas progeny group 10 failed their bitework and NONE were from Zamp females! Of the 29 adults submitted into Zamps progeny group only 1 failed its bitework, so despite the amount of progeny submitted under Vegas, it was Zamp that ended up presenting the largest progeny group, Furthermore there were far more failures from a number of other notable sires, even some from working lines, not mentioned by McKenzie, from which I leave you all to form your own conclusions. Finally, I agree with Shernaa, in that I wouldnt mix Zamp with Vegas either and possibly for the same reasons.
An good discussion though, which I will follow with interest, albeit take no further part.
Regards
Sue
by SHERNAA on 30 September 2009 - 12:09
Maybe becoming Off Topic but I am intersted to your reasons why you picked V 26 Zony vom Haus Gerstenberg?
Naturally I have looked up Zony's Photo and Pedigree.
Kind Regards
Kerry
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
