Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 5

Australia has many great dogs, it is just that people do not train as often due to the restrictions and laws, and many people in Australia also do not have the time or interest in a sport dog, where titles are considred. Many work in Security and thus work dogs on bite suits hence needing a more of a serious dog and thus many of the dogs here previously did not have as much prey drive as sport people wanted them to have. All in all i would consider Australia to have some of the worlds best bloodlines avaliable, even though if they are not titled stock, what makes you believe that the progeny won't be able to gain titles? It is all about genetics in my opinion and constructing the puzzle within your bloodlines, knowing each and every dog in and out, mentally and physically to be able to produce a great dog.

Jerry, the people for whom "kennel blindness" (which I stated is one of the biggest problems imo) is a problem hardly view their dogs as members of the family. My personal opinion is that the large scale breeders who have quotas to fill and litters continually on the ground have the biggest, darkest blinders on when it comes to their dogs because money is involved. There is more "at stake" to them, so perhaps it's easier for their views of their dogs to be skewed.  It can be very disappointing, at times, especially when you really like a dog and plan on breeding it and then decide there's something "less than stellar" about that dog and it shouldn't be bred. Of course that is largely a matter of opinion, and this is why we have threads like this. 

When I say "Darwin," I mean it across the board and I mean imposing standards of both physical and temperamental minimums onto the dogs that most people won't like at all. No buffet; no picking and choosing what things you'll adhere to and what you'll let slide because that dog is extra pretty or something. I'm not saying kill every dog who doesn't cut it, but for the love of God (in my best Chris Farley, which I admit I'm not very good at) don't breed dogs w/known temperament issues. No one seems to think it's ok to really put pressure on a dog and by pressure,  I mean way past the point where most people think they've gone too far. Not talking about a hard stare and then running away, or running at the dog, stick hits, etc. We're too soft in general when it comes to these things. I think more dogs could do both SchH and serious police/military work if SchH had more pressure and less conditioning. Some depts are ok w/titled dogs, but most nowadays seem to want them green, as there can be conflicts and certainly not every sport dog can be a dual purpose dog and vice versa. I guess I think there should be more that COULD, and if SchH went back to more of a test and less of a sport, that may increase. Just brainstorming. 

I recently almost bought a bitch that was ready for her SchH1. She was said to be ready to trial any day. I happened to talk to the breeder who had bred her (not the person currently selling her) and was told the dog was a "total spook" that they had washed out for PSD work and placed in what was supposed to be a pet home. There were several accounts of this dog's temperament, yet she was now being sold for a pretty decent amount to a BREEDING home just as soon as she got her SchH1 at the upcoming trial. Now, this stuff happens every day, so let's not get sidetracked on that. Nothing new. My point is this: WHY is she doing so well at SchH if she is by all accounts (except the person selling her) such a headcase? SchH should be geared more to expose these flaws and not provide an avenue for these dogs to be bred. That's my only issue w/it and anyone can call me anything they want because I'm personally not into SchH because I don't think it's fun...and good Lord, I really have tried to get into it, lol, but that's honestly how I feel about it. Competition between humans is the biggest detriment to the dogs. 

And those are my final thoughts on the topic. Have a great weekend, everyone.

RealBitee, I would be curious myself to see such a dog.  Nature does contrubite a lot to the working potential...but nurture is the key to unleashing that potential.  I know very little about GSDs in Australia.  Interesting. 

I think some of the limitations in the US can be attributed to the large geographic region and lack of interest or knowledge of the sport (only talking about SCH with this).  I think that if there would be a registering body that issused a working pedigree (such as what the SV issues,which includes herding, and other service..working titles in addition to sport titles) that would change some of the breeding practices and preserve some of the workability for those who want that in a dog.  Personally, it is a choice to buy a dog and I know what I am after and do not even consider anything that does not meet my personal standard for what I am looking for in a sport dog. 

 As I,ve said before "Titles are a good starting point" but show me the dog everytime. If 1 is afraid to produce the animal in question I don,t want to read about it.  It comes down to personnel choice. There are many excellent dogs that are of breedable quality schuthund  titled and not Schutzhund titles are not the be all end all  you just have to look know what your looking at and do the nessicary evaluation.
 
For anyone intrested in my dogs they are always available to see work under any conditions. When looking to breed from a dog,buy from a breeder or build on a line of dogs you should always test the dog and then read about it. IMHO

My dogs have been are and will be titled. 

 

  
 

breeding titled dogs is more a sellingtool today than a mesure of quality , any idiot with a little bit of money can buy a few titled dogs or have their dogs titled by someone else , but that doesnot make them better breeders or produce better or healthier puppies

I  train and title my dogs myself , but some of te breedingstock I started out with is not , and will never be titled , they were  selected on visual findings , other than paper promises

As i said on another thread most of you Guys are not into the sport of ScH and therefore you do not recognize any value in them as a test of a Dogs temperament, Only it seems other qualifications are acceptable to many of you Guys,
Yet what makes these other Qualifications higher than titles in the Sch Sport which do take a long time of getting, Plus as one said on here in this side of the world you need titles on a Dog before you can get it breed qualified to register any litter of Pups. So good job most of you Guys who breed these dogs do not live over here otherwise you would never get your litters registered
Also you cannot do it without Hips and Elbows good enough to breed they set a standard and good job they do, none of this slaphappy stuff which seems to be the norm in other countries
And the Wag who mentions paper promises, You Buddy go and get a Top job with a reputable firm without your Paper Promise in your Mits and see how far you will go. they will send your butt out of the door quicker than you can blink
Steve1

stevo , I run my own company , and pay people to work for me and I dont even have a swimming diploma
Ive been giving doggroomingseminairs in various countries , to certified groomers , while Im not certified myself

get real steve , I know certified decoys that dont know shit about dogs , I know certified doggroomers that can hardly hold a pair of scissors , I know lawyers that stink and can go  on for a while

Ive seen dogs getting SCHh 3   after failing the tracking , and not even attending the obedience and bitework , and it wasnot even at night , Ive seen dogs getting FH 2  without getting out of the car , we had to train a dog for bitework at the siegerschau , who had schh 1 and KKL1(bought in germany) , but never saw a sleeve in his life , didnot know the hell what it was

as long as titles and korung are for sale , their value is nothing , and for  breeding goes the same , two titled dogs are not allways a better breedingmach than any untitled ,
schh 3  bred to schh 3 can give crap , and the same goes for KKL1 bred to KKL1  dogs , no guarantees there either

 Steve:

             You have the upper hand here, Training under some of the best people there is when concerning the working class dog. Of that I am a little jealous!.

This thread was started not as a argument which it may have turned into with my help, for that I apologize to the original poster.

Bob, you are right Steve is in a country with the best trainers in the world for sure. I will always believe in titling dogs. No one can give a valid argument on why not to.......For people in this country it is a chore to find clubs in driving distance due to the size of America I know guys who drive 5 hours 2 days a week to train in a club.

people stating that there is no need to title dogs and that their way of training is so much better are the same people who will breed dogs with uncertified hips and claim it was due to an injury or accident that my dog did not ofa or blame it on the examiners etc.  most people here breed to make $$$$$$$$$ and if the truth where told they really do not care.

Australia has many great dogs, it is just that people do not train as often due to the restrictions and laws, and many people in Australia also do not have the time or interest in a sport dog, where titles are considred. Many work in Security and thus work dogs on bite suits hence needing a more of a serious dog and thus many of the dogs here previously did not have as much prey drive as sport people wanted them to have. All in all i would consider Australia to have some of the worlds best bloodlines avaliable, even though if they are not titled stock, what makes you believe that the progeny won't be able to gain titles? It is all about genetics in my opinion and constructing the puzzle within your bloodlines, knowing each and every dog in and out, mentally and physically to be able to produce a great dog.


 RealBitee,
What gives you the impression that a titled dog isn't serious enough to work in security, personally I believe that to be absolute nonesense. I have heard this on many occasions amoungst the fraturnity who don't title dogs, but how do they know a titled dog isn't serious enough when the training is taken to the level of seriousness required for sport. These sporting dogs have never been pressured and worked in civil agitation for an assumption to be made where their seriousness level ends and quite frankly in my opinion such an assumption is laughable.

The progeny of untiled dogs don't have titles and I believe it's up to breeders to prove they can before they start telling everyone how marvellous they are and how much better they are than titled dogs for these assumptioms to be taken seriously. At least a titled dog provides a foundation of it's working ability and proves it's stable enough in temperament, it's trainable and it can chase and bite a sleeve which is a good start. The only argument from there, is whether the dog has enough fighting spirit and courage to work in a civil role. If the titled dog does have the goods, it ticks all the boxes over the untitled dog where the traits required for a good balanced breeding are of an unknown quality. I have heard also many times that a sporting dog won't protect you, it may not either as it hasn't been trained in civil protection as the security dog has, but train the sporting dog in civil protection and see how it stacks up before unfounded assumptions are made is my reasoning?.