GSD breeder for ring sport? - Page 5

I have to agree with Johan's remarks here.

I will try to teach my own dog (female 8 months old), in Ring, to go in smartly, with good enough speed but not blindly. I want a Ring 3 title but not a points dog. I don't want my dog getting hurt for life. We may have to do the minimum on the palisade and the long jump to keep her healthy. As well I want to teach her to enter under control to avoid the dangers of the esquives. She won't get as many points but will probably have a longer healthier life.

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So a dog that has the greatest speed to the decoy and jumps longest and highest atomatically is the best policedog? In sports speed, precision and flash is often nowadays giving more points, but this is not a proof that the dog is the most courageous and can deal with tough trackingconditions or whatever it may be that seperates a sportdog from the less regulated conditions in practical work.

You are all over the place here. What good is your clunky dog if he cannot catch anyone ? What the fuck are you talking about flash and precision ? I do not remember saying anything about that. Tracking ? Again, what separates a sport dog from a police dog is often times who owns it. The topic is "GSD breeder for ringsport" not, the clunky dog is courageous and tracks better. : )

Quote: I will try to teach my own dog (female 8 months old), in Ring, to go in smartly, with good enough speed but not blindly.

None of them go blindly. : ) I think you will find that they tend to decide how fast to get to the decoy based on how badly they want to bite him. The jumps are taught, so you do the best you can to make them safe. My dog Esko nearly hurdles the Pallisade. His pedigree is full of FR3 dogs. He cleared full height at almost 7 months. He does all the jumps very easily. That is one of the things I am looking at. If they do the jumps easily, they are less likely to get hurt, as opposed to struggling to get over, where the chances increase greatly.

Jeff, so the malinois isn´t getting high points in dogsports because it is a very fast, highly trainable  and agile dog, suited for flashy attacks like you see particular in french ring? Of course it´s a good thing if a GSD is sound and agile in body, but he won´t catch any crooks if he lacks other skills, regardless how high he jumps;) Sometimes the difference between a sportdog and policedog is the owner, but plenty of exceptions to that rule. As I said earlier, dogs from SCH-lines are also doing ring and other sports, to get the GSD being able to compete with the best mals seems unlikely judging by results in competitions, and considering few are doing french ring outside france it isn´t of much importance I guess, unless someone want to create a GSD suited especially for ringsport.

The last thing we need is someone else coming along breeding German Shepherds for a particular sport....that's what got the breed in it's present state:-) I wish people could be as courageous as what we expect our dogs to be when it comes to breeding:-)

Don't be worried so much about losing points on esquives, in Mondio, there aren't any.  In French Ring, the deduction is .5.  Be more concerned with quick responsive "outs" as 1 second is 2.5 points.  That's why the French bred (not to be confused with French bread) dogs although nervy and fast, excel in their sport because of their quick release and speed and athleticism.  As a rule, Shepherds need a little bit more time to unload from a grip before they "out" but in FR, this trait will kill you on the points, 2 seconds slow to out??  5 points,,,thank you.  What you have to worry about on the esquives is the dog's perseverance after the esquive.  Is the confidence broken?  Can the decoy keep the dog at bay with a firm barrage?  Entry level such as Brevet and FRI, no esquives and minimal barrage but as you move up the ladder, here it comes.  In Mondio, no problem, no esquives, no stick hits.  Technically in FR, no stick hits until the dog is on the suit, HOWEVER, if the dog "runs into the stick" before contact,,,well that's his fault.  Right decoy boys?

Quote: Jeff, so the malinois isn´t getting high points in dogsports because it is a very fast, highly trainable  and agile dog, suited for flashy attacks like you see particular in french ring? Of course it´s a good thing if a GSD is sound and agile in body, but he won´t catch any crooks if he lacks other skills, regardless how high he jumps;) Sometimes the difference between a sportdog and policedog is the owner, but plenty of exceptions to that rule. As I said earlier, dogs from SCH-lines are also doing ring and other sports, to get the GSD being able to compete with the best mals seems unlikely judging by results in competitions, and considering few are doing french ring outside france it isn´t of much importance I guess, unless someone want to create a GSD suited especially for ringsport.

I have no idea what the fuck you are blathering on about.

Flashy attacks ? You mean flashy compared to the clunky attacks that you seem to think the GSD is doing ?

There are not plenty of exceptions to the rule. Why in the name of all that is holy would a breeder sell his best pups to police depts ? The black hole of genetics here in the states. You would have to be wonky. I have known more sport dogs that would be better suited to police work than I have known police dogs that are suited for the work. : )

Quote: The last thing we need is someone else coming along breeding German Shepherds for a particular sport.

Too late, France is full of them. What else you going to breed for ? I mean seriously, there is no herding here, seeing eye dogs are all fat pathetic labs, with few exceptions, and the last few people I saw with a seeing eye dog, WOW what an embarassment. There is nothing left really. 

Quote: hmmm...takes more than a field to make them the best.


Really Judron? Thanks for the enlightenment. Amazing that it take more than a field of grass to make them the best-- why did you pipe up about YOU having a SchH field 5  min away when there is no decoy to work with?

Jeff was talking about having a decoy to work with, not just an empty space to work in.

 I live in horse country and there are many fields to work in. I could say that I have a SchH field less than a minute away, which I do if I go by your parameters.

Jeff, I mean a very fast dog(speed is everything you said) in a fleeatack or couragetest for example, usually get´s high points, even more so if it also outs very quick and neat, so what I´m trying to tell you is this factor alone is not everything for a workingdog, much preydrive doesn´t equal a superior dog in all aspects. But it´s not the speed that is the issue, it´s the idea that speed and fast attacks is somehow a sign of the best dog, yes it´s important for a sportdog but it doesn´t say if the dog is so good in other areas. 

What you guys do in US is nothing I know of, in europe I know more than a few competition-dogs that haven´t passed the selectiontest for the police, or dogs that have been taken out from service because they couldn´t track well or had other issues not tested in sport. But I agree that far from all policedogs are superior to sportdogs, something tells me this is even more true in US from your description;) But it´s also a question of two type of works, but I prefer a more versatile dog even if it may not be the one that get the highest scores.

Quote: Don't be worried so much about losing points on esquives, in Mondio, there aren't any. 

Uh, yes there are. Better go read up on the rules.

Quote: Jeff, I mean a very fast dog(speed is everything you said) in a fleeatack or couragetest for example, usually get´s high points, even more so if it also outs very quick and neat, so what I´m trying to tell you is this factor alone is not everything for a workingdog, much preydrive doesn´t equal a superior dog in all aspects. But it´s not the speed that is the issue, it´s the idea that speed and fast attacks is somehow a sign of the best dog, yes it´s important for a sportdog but it doesn´t say if the dog is so good in other areas.

So, the clunky dog that gets his head bashed in because he is slow and defensive is the superior dog. That is what you are saying ? LOL You have no arguement at all so far.

The dog that outs right away ? That could not POSSIBLY be training. Or, you consider the slow clunky dog that outs slow to be a more powerful dog, in which case, you would be wrong. In ring, the out is taught right away. No one is waiting for the dog to grow up, or to learn to hold on calmly while it runs in a circle like a retard.

QUote: But I agree that far from all policedogs are superior to sportdogs, something tells me this is even more true in US from your description;) But it´s also a question of two type of works, 

Ok, we have actual criminals here. 

Quote:  but I prefer a more versatile dog even if it may not be the one that get the highest scores.

How is the dog that you have confused the shit out of me with, more versatile ?? You do realize that if your dog has no speed and no agility, there is no fucking way it is more versatile than the dog WITH speed and WITH agility.

How is your dog even in the running ? Cannot catch the bad guy, so why even take him out of the car ? Cannot jump a fence, so why even take him out of the car ??

I said nothing of high points, you just made that shit up all on your own. I said nothing about preydrive, you came up with that one on your own. You are saying that a dog that is slow and clumsy is more versatile, and I am saying that you are full of shit.