Is it not possible to have an intelligent, fact based discussion ........... - Page 6

 Thanks Rik for the nice comments,

Here's her breeding: Sir Smokin Joe of Nordlicht,( 4-3,3 on Andretti) Dam Macdan's Tagg (Grand daughter of Koolbrook d'esprit d'escalier Ivana's Mother).  I had the first pick of the litter and chose her(a dearly friend of mine bred her)..her sister and Brother are Am. Champion..she has 5 pts in the states (i showed her myself and have beaten Jimmy twice). I didn't have time or money to finish her .

She's  only 5-5 on Sundance Kid.  She took a lot from her Sir side (Nordlicht).  She is a wonderful bitch, very weel balance (temperament and stucture). Never limped once..just a great dog.. She has a LOT of herding instinct..too bad we don't have much place to do herding around here!!

Tig..I can walk her, gait her...do whatever I want she still has a beautiful front!! 

I don't need to walk a dog to see what kind of shoulder she or he has..and I don't want to make an argument about this but on a picture you can usually see a bad front..and you can REALLY see it when gaiting..

Walking is usually to see the back (soft or roach). And see how far the dog can open it's shoulder. Pacing is not unatural when walking..in fact it is a walking gait and you shouldn't penalize a dog that pace if you ask it to walk..if you do..you shouldn't judge! Dogs that pace when a full trotting speed are usually too long in body. (not good either)

Too upwright pastern is a fault and should be penalize..we have shepherds not terriers (I breed airedale too and know what upright shoulder and pasterns do!t) It affect suspension. Read the standard. Don't get me wrong..week pasterns are not better  and Am line has to improve on this.  

You want to see what a great front is..attend a National..not all dogs there have great front (in fact I would take back maybe 3 or 4 home!).  But those who have..you wil get goosebumps..very very impressive!

There she is at 7 months in the futurity showed by Olivia Calabrese (I had a ankle problem and couldn't show her..)



Julie

Tig, very excellent advice all the way around.

July below is one of my Am. S/L bitch from days past. Jimmy literally found her in a back yard. He called me and suggested I go buy her. She was 18 mo. old and had a litter of 6 wk old puppies. She looked like Shit, but I paid the guy, took her home and began getting her back into shape,

She morphed into Am. Ch. Clayfield Trieste. While possessing many of the obvious Am. S/L traits, she was a very excellent dog to live with, and also produced a Champion or 2.

Here she is being awarded Best of Winners for a major by Judge Ernie Loeb, mentioned by TIG above. I'm sure you know the handler.

Jimmy was and is a busy person, yet still took time to "mentor me" and give advice.  

And again good advice from Tig. I feel that as concerns the Am. S.L, I was very careful who I learned from.

Rik

Rik:

Do you do any work with your dogs?

Actually Rik, you assume I've chosen the American dogs ;-)  Don't forget, I have a West German boy too.

I'd actually like another west german show line, but can't find one with a topline that I feel is correct.  I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't seen them

By the way, I have indeed been over to Europe (Austria/Italy) and saw many many Shepherds there.

And yes, Justin's upper arm could be the slightest bit longer.  I also wish he was a little lower stationed.  I love his length of body, but think he has too much leg.

As for my bitch (her name is Delphi), she was given to me on a co-ownership agreement (a VERY reasonable one at that!).  The owner of the dog knew I couldn't afford an outright purchase of a foundation bitch, but couldn't keep her to breed herself, so I got her on a breeding co-ownership and to show in whatever venue I like :)

I like the look of the Nadelhaus dogs a lot, especially this bitch:


I don't like her front at ALL (especially the lack of bone), but I appreciate her overall style.  I'd like to see a shorter ear and a slightly shorter back, but I like the breadth of thigh.  I think she's a little angular, not in terms of being overdone, but lacking the smooth curves and connections that make a dog "flow".

I do appreciate her feet, but would like more angle in the pastern and a little more chest

Bob, I retire from showing Am. S/L in 1999.  My reasons are good for a whole other thread.

In January, this year (after several months of research) I got a German pup. We  train with Fred Lanting who has a complete training field set up. I have also joined CASC, the only club in my area. So to say that  I have any level of sucess in training , no. Do I take my dog to the field several times a week and we both work to learn from people with experience., most deffinitly.

Best,
Rik

NIce female..can't beleive she was in a back yard!!

Again we can see on this picture that this bitch has a very good shoulder assembly (90 degree angle and upper arm/scapula ratio almost impeccable).  Nice layback of shoulder. good pasterns. Good lenght of body ratio.  The back looks ok on the picture but could be a little weak ( that you see when gaiting or walking) Could have a better croup. Nice deep body, great chest (brisket), nice long neck, very feminine,lack a little bit a under jaw but overall a very good specimen.  I would have took her in my home anytime :))

Jimmy is a real gentleman, always takes time if you want to learn.  He has great passion for this breed and you can just feel it when talking to him..I have great respect for him and Sheree and it's always a renew pleasure to meet them at Nationals or shows..taking a few beers and talking about dogs..

Thanks for the second part TIG..very interesting..and true

HEY WE CAN HAVE AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION!

Thanks

Julie

All too often you see these dogs doing "hiel hitler" with their front and people are oohing and ahing as fi the dog had the greatest front assembly.

Tig, what causes some of the German SL dogs to lift their paws so high like that? I've heard different explanations. One thing I know for sure is it isn't correct!

the movement you are talking about Sunsilver is called Hackney movement,  you see it with min pins and most terrier breeds.
my opinion is it gives the look of a dog having good front movement when in fact it does not.  the shoulder isn't being used properly and is not being opened up fully during movement.  to compensate the dog lifts the foreleg higher.
infact it is wasted motion and more work for the dog.
the gait should be the maximum amount of ground covered with the least amount of energy expended. dogs with Hackney gait will tire quicker than a dog with correct movement.