The ideal GSD before the breed was bifurcated into WL and SL - Page 6

 Can we post this a thousand times? 

bred for performance based on prey, with disregard of courage under threat, territoriality, longevity, bred to being numb to sudden stimulus like gun fire,....

Yes, why are we breeding numb dogs, oblivious to a threat, instead of dogs who are courageous in the face of a threat? I wince every time someone brags about a puppy who is so enthralled with a rag that it doesn't notice the gun going off over it's head. 

Because our  world is more and more  sissified and PC and full of animal rights wackos. It is a cultural thing.
 Makeup of the dogs is a direct result of culture who created it. The problem is that we are striving for gentle culture and gentle PC dogs. It is easy and faster to create PC gentle dogs then to create PC gentle culture. Thus we do not have gentle culture. Crime is just as high as before and we are living in the world of wars. Thus PC wishful dreaming of gentle culture is not what reality is and it is out of sync with trend to create "modern" PC dogs. Create PC dogs is misguided.  
Prager Hans.
http://www.alpinek9.com

 I always tell people "dogs are a reflection of our society." Think of all the parallels....sad. 

I didn't see that you had posted, I just answered it sorta kinda. I had no idea that you would get all bold type on my ass. LOL

I did a poor job of answering it, mostly because some of what you are saying my answer is not going to come out right typing. Brain is way faster than my typing. I will give some of it a shot. 

Quote: that dogs who reached highest level of anything are usually extreme dogs and breeding for extreme is what is really bad for GSD.

I am not a Sch guy. I like Mondio ring. I do not think that the higher levels of Sch are dogs that are extreme. Sorry. Extreme dogs in my book do not score well enough unless handled by a hell of a hadler with really really good trainers around. Sch3 is about a MR1.

Quote: That is how top SchH dogs are ruining the breed.

I personally think that most of the top dogs are golden middle dogs to a bit above. I think that is what is ruining things.

Quote: Extreme drive, usually poor hips background, poor elbows background,

Got an example of this extreme drive for me ? I will take your word for the hips and elbows. I know you pay close attention to that. I have not looked at Sch dogs in some time as far as hips. Been off playing with Mals.

Quote: bred for performance based on prey, Pretty sure that I answered this on the other thread. How long does a dog have to work before they stop seeing the guy with the huge arm as a threat ? How long has it been since you have seen how they are teaching the courage test ? Why would a dog show you what he was with that kind of training ? How about the blind search ? How many times does a dog get sent to the blind before he figures out that the guy is not going to kill him, and how long have they shaped the dogs behavior in the blind ? There is a great video of Bart Bellon's dog barking seriously into an empty blind. LOL It is training, and the inevitable results. We look for well, "I" look for a dog that recovers quickly. Why would I want a dog that after three years, still thinks the guy in the blind is dangerous and gets all serious ? Not the way they train it now. : )

Quote: with disregard of courage under threat, territoriality, longevity, bred to being numb to sudden stimulus like gun fire,....and I can keep going on and on and on...

Some good points. However, the numb to stimulus thing, you are basing that on ??  The BH ? What would you prefer ? I agree with longevity for sure. I have no need of territoriality. You can keep that one. We are in the US. 

 Quote:  I wince every time someone brags about a puppy who is so enthralled with a rag that it doesn't notice the gun going off over it's head.

What do you want then ? If a dog is in drive, and biting the shit out of the bad guy, do you really want the dog to let go or something ?

I do not believe that that proves a point at all. There are plenty of dogs out there that will not hear gunfire when in drive, but freak the fuck out at home if they hear it in varying levels.

 A dog is not a car. I hate this "in drive" thing. I want a dog who is thinking throughout EVERYTHING it does. I'm not saying the dog should stop biting in the example you used, Jeff; what I'm saying is that I want the dog to be alert and notice everything around it, and DECIDE if it's something to bother with or not- but for God's sake, I want them to at least hear the gun. You know the kind I mean- the kind that seek the safety of the sleeve and just hang there, looking all impressive to people who don't which end the leash goes on, but really it's just another form of avoidance. 

 Quote:  the kind that seek the safety of the sleeve and just hang there, looking all impressive to people who don't which end the leash goes on, but really it's just another form of avoidance.

This is a much better explanation.

 The founder of the breed thoght this dog below was a good example how the GSD should look like, and the dogs looked similar until the split in early 70s, luckily there are dogs that looks the same in our days but you won´t find them in the showlines. As long as the dog is structurally correct for a workingdog and have health + workingability all the other is just small details I think, especially when people obviously can´t agree how a GSD should look like which is obvious if you look at the change that happened in structure after the split.  Is it really important if some dogs have minor faults in their looks, I mean isn´t the company, health and the use you have of the dog the things that really counts afterall? 

www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/862.html

The change in the breeds structure in past 40 years is based purely on people's ego(wanting to have something pretty and fashionable), and people's feelings. This diversion in structural type has nothing to do with working ability or health. I'm not bashing...just plain telling the truth.

KCzaja: I agree that "it's unjust to label every showline person as a crook peddling pansy dogs for obscene prices, just as it is unfair to say every workingline person is selling land shark prey monsters to families as pets just because some of them do." The reason why it's always the showline folks who bear the brunt of criticism is because of the type of problems such a mismach creates. If one gets a SL GSD, one is not expecting it to be a little buzzsaw, whereas even some WL pups whose drives are insufficient for most sport/work owners will still be a handful for a "pet" home. I have a SL female that has WL-like drives and she has to have her daily exercise or else she's looking for something to chew/kill/dominate. While she works well for me, she would be a PITA in a pet home. It all comes down to matching the dog to the right home. Personally, I like a dog that has some prey, some defense drive and a good dose of malice when adressing the helper/decoy/threat.