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by Sue B on 09 December 2010 - 16:12
Firstly please note three quotes below I have copied from posts on Page1 & 2.
On Page1 Jacki2263 said :- "luckily my dog has only produced a small number of litters with no dwarfs that I am aware of, but knowing that a percentage of his progeny WILL be carriers, have immediately withdrawn him from stud to help prevent the problem escalating."
On Page 1 Abby's reply to Jacki2263"
Jacki2263
First off, I salute you. If ONLY others would have the courage to follow suit, and actually really take steps to eradicate this disease."
On Page 2 Abby's reply to Hutch
"Fear – I understand that completely. “It must be a bitter pill to swallow if your top winning stud dog tests as a carrier - etc etc ............................... even if that top winning stud turns out to be a carrier it won’t cause his owner to love him less, or be less proud of him. If they want to make him a champion they still can as things stand. So ultimately, the only loss will be having to withdraw him from stud. It will be a harder pill for the breed to swallow, if, as seems to be happening here – that when these genetic tests do finally become available, we do not make use of them. "
I do hope you all note the sentence within Abby Normals Page2 reply above, which I have underlined and highlighted in blue for your convenience.
Now Abby, do you still maintain no-one was suggesting WITHDRAWING dog from Stud and consequently NARROWING the Gene Pool!!!?? There are some others as well but I felt the ones I have used above were more than enough to prove my point, as well as point out the discrepancy in what you are now trying to say in your latest post.
Such statements that animals with a positive test result should be withdrawn from the gene pool, which you and others have been making here, is the only reason I entered the debate. My fear for this breed is those without any apparent expertise, intellectual rationalisation or realisation of the intricacies of the subject at hand, nor do you seem to paying even a modicum of thought towards the dire implications your constant prophet of doom preachings on this database could possibly be having on the continued existence of the breed in the UK.
Here lies the problem Abby, the continuous WITCH HUNT you obviously intended to start here with your bum-pity bump, bump bumps of this thread, until others eventually come here to discuss it with you, is exactly why some breeders decide not to do certain tests or if they do, decide not to publicise the resluts. After-all, why should they put them on public view on somebody else's website?? What the hell as it got to do with anyone else anyway, or at least anyone other than those people it could directly effect, such as someone inquiring after using a dog at stud etc?
As you have often pointed out to other posters here, in future please reread what you have previously said before trying to deny you ever said it.
Regards
Sue b
On Page1 Jacki2263 said :- "luckily my dog has only produced a small number of litters with no dwarfs that I am aware of, but knowing that a percentage of his progeny WILL be carriers, have immediately withdrawn him from stud to help prevent the problem escalating."
On Page 1 Abby's reply to Jacki2263"
Jacki2263
First off, I salute you. If ONLY others would have the courage to follow suit, and actually really take steps to eradicate this disease."
On Page 2 Abby's reply to Hutch
"Fear – I understand that completely. “It must be a bitter pill to swallow if your top winning stud dog tests as a carrier - etc etc ............................... even if that top winning stud turns out to be a carrier it won’t cause his owner to love him less, or be less proud of him. If they want to make him a champion they still can as things stand. So ultimately, the only loss will be having to withdraw him from stud. It will be a harder pill for the breed to swallow, if, as seems to be happening here – that when these genetic tests do finally become available, we do not make use of them. "
I do hope you all note the sentence within Abby Normals Page2 reply above, which I have underlined and highlighted in blue for your convenience.
Now Abby, do you still maintain no-one was suggesting WITHDRAWING dog from Stud and consequently NARROWING the Gene Pool!!!?? There are some others as well but I felt the ones I have used above were more than enough to prove my point, as well as point out the discrepancy in what you are now trying to say in your latest post.
Such statements that animals with a positive test result should be withdrawn from the gene pool, which you and others have been making here, is the only reason I entered the debate. My fear for this breed is those without any apparent expertise, intellectual rationalisation or realisation of the intricacies of the subject at hand, nor do you seem to paying even a modicum of thought towards the dire implications your constant prophet of doom preachings on this database could possibly be having on the continued existence of the breed in the UK.
Here lies the problem Abby, the continuous WITCH HUNT you obviously intended to start here with your bum-pity bump, bump bumps of this thread, until others eventually come here to discuss it with you, is exactly why some breeders decide not to do certain tests or if they do, decide not to publicise the resluts. After-all, why should they put them on public view on somebody else's website?? What the hell as it got to do with anyone else anyway, or at least anyone other than those people it could directly effect, such as someone inquiring after using a dog at stud etc?
As you have often pointed out to other posters here, in future please reread what you have previously said before trying to deny you ever said it.
Regards
Sue b
by Videx on 09 December 2010 - 16:12
Excellent post Sue
by kesyra on 09 December 2010 - 17:12
I have been avoiding commenting on this thread, as the last time I commented on a similar thread, I was 'shot down in flames' by some other breeders.
I had said that I would use a carrier dog if he was the best choice for my bitch, but would now take the precaution of testing my bitch to check that she isn't a carrier, being as there is now a test available. Having had dwarfs back in the 80's, I have no wish to have them again; however, they were not passed on to any pet owner, as I took the decision to have them put them to sleep after speaking at length to Dr Malcolm Willis.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Sue B, this does indeed seem to be a witch hunt to name and shame carriers and thereby force their owners into withdrawing their dogs from the gene pool. It may be that is not what some of you on here are intending........but that is not how it appears to me.
I had said that I would use a carrier dog if he was the best choice for my bitch, but would now take the precaution of testing my bitch to check that she isn't a carrier, being as there is now a test available. Having had dwarfs back in the 80's, I have no wish to have them again; however, they were not passed on to any pet owner, as I took the decision to have them put them to sleep after speaking at length to Dr Malcolm Willis.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Sue B, this does indeed seem to be a witch hunt to name and shame carriers and thereby force their owners into withdrawing their dogs from the gene pool. It may be that is not what some of you on here are intending........but that is not how it appears to me.
I still maintain that there are worse conditions to produce, such as EPI, Epilepsy, AF and other severe immune mediated conditions, which cause the owners of these afflicted animals great distress. A dwarf puppy should NOT be passed on to an unsuspecting pet owner, as the condition is identifiable within the first six weeks of life, so therefore should not cause any pet owner the heartache that the above conditions do. Yes, it is a problem for the breeder, who then has to decide whether to keep the pup/s or have them put to sleep.
I used Voko v. Monchberg some years ago, who turned out to be a carrier but I had excellent hips, no problems with elbows, EPI, epilepsy or AF and incidentally I had no dwarfs. I still have his daughter aged 12.5. All dogs will carry something undesirable and narrowing the gene pool even more than it is already, is not the answer.
I am very pleased there is a test available and I will be using it myself. However, I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever to imply that carriers are themselves sub standard and suffering from other health problems and it is implications such as these, on threads like this, that will put many breeders off testing and certainly from revealing their results.
Regards
Katrina
by Abby Normal on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
Pituitary dwarfism in German Shepherd Dogs
-The Genetic Test-
Measures taken by the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H.
This is to inform you about the communication of the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H. - with Dr.Kooistra, University
of Utrecht. The GSD Board of the Netherlands has taken a stand in accordance with Dr. Kooistra. In the Aprilmagazine
(page 9) of the V.D.H. is published an article with official advice of the Board of the V.D.H. to all breeders of
GSD.
Peter van Oirschot
PUBLICATION OF THE BOARD OF THE V.D.H. = GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG ASSOCIATION OF THE
NETHERLANDS
V.D.H. magazine April 2009 page 9
MEASURES AGAINST THE MUTATED GENE THAT CAUSES PITUITARY DWARFISM IN GSD
The ideal situation to get rid of dwarfism would be testing all breed animals once to check them for carrying the gene. For practical reasons this approach will be difficult. That is why it is reasonable to start testing the groups with the most risks.
The Board of the V.D.H. Netherlands advises to test for the gene that causes dwarfism:
1. All males with more than 10 (expected) matings, because they have a genetic impact on the breed population.
2. Related GSD, if it is not proven that both parents are free from the dwarf-gene, to a proven carrier or dwarf within the first four generations of its pedigree. These animals have a chance of 1 to 16 to be a carrier itself.
Carriers should only be combined with dogs that are proven free from the dwarf-gene.
The results are: dwarf;carrier of the gene; free from the dwarf-gene. You can download the forms beneath to be used by your vet.
The opinion of the V.D.H. board is that it is not done to breed with a dwarf. This is forbidden by the breed specific regulations in the V.D.H.-NL (you are not allowed to breed with a dog which is suffering from a genetic defect itself). So it is never allowed to breed with GSD dwarfs (mostly they are sterile, infertile).
It depends upon the amount of GSD that apparently will be proven carriers to decide whether it is advisable to breed with carriers. If the incidence of carriers is very low the V.D.H board advices not to breed with carriers.
If the incidence of carriers is higher then the V.D.H board advises to use these dogs intelligently by crossing carriers only with dogs which are proven free of the dwarf gene. To exclude carriers of the dwarf gene for breeding would be unwise because the population would lose its genetic variation. This would increase the chances for other genetic defects.
The V.D.H. board asks politely for your full support and complete openness and transparency.
THE BOARD OF THE VDH-NETHERLANDS
-The Genetic Test-
Measures taken by the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H.
This is to inform you about the communication of the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H. - with Dr.Kooistra, University
of Utrecht. The GSD Board of the Netherlands has taken a stand in accordance with Dr. Kooistra. In the Aprilmagazine
(page 9) of the V.D.H. is published an article with official advice of the Board of the V.D.H. to all breeders of
GSD.
Peter van Oirschot
PUBLICATION OF THE BOARD OF THE V.D.H. = GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG ASSOCIATION OF THE
NETHERLANDS
V.D.H. magazine April 2009 page 9
MEASURES AGAINST THE MUTATED GENE THAT CAUSES PITUITARY DWARFISM IN GSD
The ideal situation to get rid of dwarfism would be testing all breed animals once to check them for carrying the gene. For practical reasons this approach will be difficult. That is why it is reasonable to start testing the groups with the most risks.
The Board of the V.D.H. Netherlands advises to test for the gene that causes dwarfism:
1. All males with more than 10 (expected) matings, because they have a genetic impact on the breed population.
2. Related GSD, if it is not proven that both parents are free from the dwarf-gene, to a proven carrier or dwarf within the first four generations of its pedigree. These animals have a chance of 1 to 16 to be a carrier itself.
Carriers should only be combined with dogs that are proven free from the dwarf-gene.
The results are: dwarf;carrier of the gene; free from the dwarf-gene. You can download the forms beneath to be used by your vet.
The opinion of the V.D.H. board is that it is not done to breed with a dwarf. This is forbidden by the breed specific regulations in the V.D.H.-NL (you are not allowed to breed with a dog which is suffering from a genetic defect itself). So it is never allowed to breed with GSD dwarfs (mostly they are sterile, infertile).
It depends upon the amount of GSD that apparently will be proven carriers to decide whether it is advisable to breed with carriers. If the incidence of carriers is very low the V.D.H board advices not to breed with carriers.
If the incidence of carriers is higher then the V.D.H board advises to use these dogs intelligently by crossing carriers only with dogs which are proven free of the dwarf gene. To exclude carriers of the dwarf gene for breeding would be unwise because the population would lose its genetic variation. This would increase the chances for other genetic defects.
The V.D.H. board asks politely for your full support and complete openness and transparency.
THE BOARD OF THE VDH-NETHERLANDS
by missbeeb on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
Having read and absorbed, I will have Jimmy tested… better safe than sorry!
Pam, I did not know that there was a test for AF and having had a dog, some years back, with this horrendous condition, this interests me greatly.
Shepherdsguy’s idea of breeding costs is too funny... (I don’t breed, so no axe to grind).
AbNor, you bait & goad people (breeders); seems you only start or join threads that are breed / breeder bashing to some degree. Yours is ever a black outlook... pity! You’re so fond of telling all and sundry what they should be doing and how they should be doing it. Well... don’t tell us what you think, show us what you’ve done, it may lend some credence to your oft spouted opinions.
You sound more interested in trying to show everyone how smart you think you are than the welfare of the breed. If so many breeders have it wrong... perhaps you should breed yourself?
Much of what you write has real merit, (albeit, already well known) but it’s so tarred with a tone of, “nasty, greedy, couldn’t care less breeders”, as to render itself, at best, distasteful. There are so many good, responsible breeders who no longer comment on here because of this kind of crapola, spewed forth from anonymous people.
It speaks volumes that you believe every carrier dog should be removed from stud!
It speaks volumes that you think your "bumping" of this thread will ensure, “ignorance cannot be the cause of lack of testing”... really? You think you and PDB are so well read / thought of?
The Border Collie health issue is... bollocks! (Sorry) I couldn’t count the amount of BC breeders (working & show) that don’t do half the health checks available (& necessary)where’ve you been? I’ll not mention the spinners and loons that they also produce in considerable numbers; rescue tells the story, though it is apparently improving.
Finally, I really don’t want to fight and bitch, it’s totally fruitless! Far better to pull resources for the good of our breed. Far better to try to accept that a different opinion is not necessarily a wrong opinion. Far better to recognise that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
I too wanted to avoid comment on this thread...
Barbara MacKenzie
by Abby Normal on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
This really is a case of the lady doth protest too much. The only person (oh, no - Videx of course agrees with you) who sees this as a witch hunt is you. You may also get the odd straggler who cannot see that you simply want to pervert the course of this thread for your own reasons, (which are I presume justification for not testing). Well Sue, nobody said you had to, same as nobody said all carriers should be removed from the breeding programme, despite you trying to make out otherwise. My reference to a stud dog being withdrawn may have been presumptive, but sensible, and supported by geneticists. Shirley mentioned that she would breed a carrier bitch to a clear male - was she slaughtered? No, because people recognise that she is testing and using the results INTELLIGENTLY.
The transparency behind your intentions (and of course yours Videx) is very obvious. Call people names and hope people forget about testing. So, now that we have geneticists view (more knowledgeable than you or Videx I believe), perhaps you would like to contribute something positive to this thread.
You don't agree that carrier sires should be removed from a breeding programme and you don't believe bitches need to be tested - correct? No change then, everyone carry on as before? It is people like this that hold and will continue to hold the breed back, by working only to their own agenda's and not with the genuine welfare of the breed at heart.
The transparency behind your intentions (and of course yours Videx) is very obvious. Call people names and hope people forget about testing. So, now that we have geneticists view (more knowledgeable than you or Videx I believe), perhaps you would like to contribute something positive to this thread.
You don't agree that carrier sires should be removed from a breeding programme and you don't believe bitches need to be tested - correct? No change then, everyone carry on as before? It is people like this that hold and will continue to hold the breed back, by working only to their own agenda's and not with the genuine welfare of the breed at heart.
by missbeeb on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
Blimey... shades of Sarah Bernhardt Abnor!
Well respected breeders are now stragglers? Shirley wasn't slaughtered, as you rather dramatically referred to it, because both herself and her mother have been breeding for years and they're likely to know what they're talking about, whereas your good self.........?
by Abby Normal on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
I can't understand then why people who didn't want to comment on this thread went on to do just that, and so negatively too. Well anyway good to see the ra-ra team is complete.
Missbeeb, I don't think you will find any nasty, greeder breeder comments made on this thread. I know that you and others really dislike some of the questions raised, it rattles your safe worlds, but I don't subscribe to the Watership Down approach to problems which you seem to favour. Would you ever raise a negative point about breeding practices, would SueB, would Videx - no course not. Doesn't mean they aren't there though.
In fact, if you read through this thread the only 'nastiness' and unpleasantness comes from SueB, you and Videx.
Finally MissBeeb, I have just been involved with a litter of border collies, and they had all the health tests I mentioned. I know, because I dealt with all the organisation. So that is where I have been. Glad that our litter could be counted on the hand that did all the health tests.
Yes, of course there will be some that don't do the full range of tests, just as there will be GSD breeders who don't use all the tests available. But then I don't consider them good breeders, do you?
I will keep bumping the thread. I think all should read it.
Anyhow, congratulations to you, Sue and Videx. You effectively derailed a positive health thread. Be proud.
Missbeeb, I don't think you will find any nasty, greeder breeder comments made on this thread. I know that you and others really dislike some of the questions raised, it rattles your safe worlds, but I don't subscribe to the Watership Down approach to problems which you seem to favour. Would you ever raise a negative point about breeding practices, would SueB, would Videx - no course not. Doesn't mean they aren't there though.
In fact, if you read through this thread the only 'nastiness' and unpleasantness comes from SueB, you and Videx.
Finally MissBeeb, I have just been involved with a litter of border collies, and they had all the health tests I mentioned. I know, because I dealt with all the organisation. So that is where I have been. Glad that our litter could be counted on the hand that did all the health tests.
Yes, of course there will be some that don't do the full range of tests, just as there will be GSD breeders who don't use all the tests available. But then I don't consider them good breeders, do you?
I will keep bumping the thread. I think all should read it.
Anyhow, congratulations to you, Sue and Videx. You effectively derailed a positive health thread. Be proud.
by Abby Normal on 09 December 2010 - 18:12
MissBeeb
Who do you think is being called a straggler??
I thoroughly agree with you. Shirley and Mo are well respected breeders who know what they are talking about. I would recommend them to anybody. Glad we agree on something.
However, if the intention had been a witch hunt that surely that wouldn't have protected them. No, this was never a witch hunt, only some people want it to appear that way.
Who do you think is being called a straggler??
I thoroughly agree with you. Shirley and Mo are well respected breeders who know what they are talking about. I would recommend them to anybody. Glad we agree on something.
However, if the intention had been a witch hunt that surely that wouldn't have protected them. No, this was never a witch hunt, only some people want it to appear that way.
by missbeeb on 09 December 2010 - 19:12
Abnor, allow me to enlighten you! Sue, Dave & Katrina are experienced breeders; I don't know Dave Payne, except by sight (at shows) & exchanges on here... he gets his hair off now and again... you know that, you've baited him often enough! I've found him to be an arse at times, I expect he may say the same of me... such is life! He is very generous with info and I've never known him refuse help to anyone. I would have no qualms asking him for info or assistance.
Sue & Katrina are both well known experienced breeders. Both are very knowledgeable and are known as such. Now, this is important... neither of them would think twice about asking for advice, neither of them thinks they're too big or important to ask those that may know better! I fear the same could not be said of you.
We could all get along and learn, but I really don't think that's your bag... you present yourself as an educator, yet you lack many of the basics and the humility to admit when you're wrong. I think it's a pity, but there it is!
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