Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 6

copdogs , let me give you a valid argument

genetics

you can train with whoever you want , and put titles on your dog as many as you want , but neither of those will change the genetics of your dog , or will improve the quality of the pups of that dog , in any way ,shape or form

Duke1965,
I don't think we are talking the comparison of dogs with bogas titles being the essence of the thread, for things to be on a level playing field in discussion I assume are titled dogs that can score a ligitimate SchH3 routine?

Duke
you are out of touch my friend. In most walks of life today you will not get a top job without that bit of Paper you may be an exception to the rule and i am not talking about Dog grooming i did not think you would have to study for 3 or 4 years in Uni to get a dog groomers degree I could be wrong of course. Anyhow i thought you lived in Holland nothing to do with the USA although i think you want to move over there.
Regards the Dog with a ScH1 and KKL1 from Germany , what you are saying is that the bit of paper was given to the owner without the Dog actually taking the test 
Well regards to what goes on in Germany and Holland i do not know, but you will not get them given to you in Belgium
Of course you can get dummies bred from Sch 111 dogs and Dogs which are korclassed but you have a better chance than a Dog with Generations of nothing to its portfolio. Plus you fail to mention that if a Dog is bred without any testing how the hell will you really know the temperament of any dog, It needs to be put under some pressure and stress to bring the temperament out.
 Sitting on a couch will not bring anything out of the dog except laziness. Of course it does not have to be the ScH sport but it needs some sort of testing
Steve1

rexy , can you see in the scorebook how a dog got his points , topic is about treeding without titles
my point is that titles dont improve the quality of the dog

there is a worldfamous workingline breeder with a fully titled breedingbitch on his website , I decoyed for that bitch to get her biting , seen her training , know how and where she got her titles , but people who dont say , wow , top schh3 bitch from topkennel , and will pay topdollar for her pups

who is fooling who

Duke1965, I get the impression you are speaking about titled dogs not worthy of the title who haven't received them in a legitimate manner and breeders marketing these dogs on false achievements is that correct?


My point is, we are not talking of dishonest marketing and buying a pup from a supposed titled dog that isn't, that's another story, but as an example Angsbackens Rosso the WUSV 2007 Champion is a titled dog, what's wrong with that one or what's lacking in that dog where better traits are more likely found in an untitled dog? 

I'm not a breeder, however, I have purchased puppies from generations of Sch III dogs.   So, theoretically, these pups should have pretty solid genetics of  dogs that were able to title to SchIII. 
I do not need to put these dogs under pressure on a Schutzhund field to know that they can be run off the field.  Heck, you only have to say BOO! to them in my yard.

 A good dog is a good dog as has been said on here over and over again, and it is the truth.

rexy , you say angsbacken rosso , no problem , but if he doesnot bring what my bitch needs , he wont be of any use for me , but now , there are people with crappy , unknown bitches that barely passed their schh exam , but are titled now , breed their crap to angsbacken rosso , and sell their pups on the sires fame

this is titled breeding , but is it good breeding , can novice people see the difference , or will the worldchampion offspring automaticly allways be great dogs

next example , copdogs mentions breeding for $$$$$$

what do certain american kennels breed for , they have a business setup , buy 5 to 10 (or more) titled bitches , and one titled male of name , and push out puppies

if people loose interest in the male , he gets replaced by a more recent dog of name , that can now breed all bitches that come in heat for the next couple of years

quality titled breeding , or maybe not so

Duke1965, I understand where you are coming from, but if a dog is titled, there is an opportunity to research the dog, who trained the dog, who's decoyed the dog and get a picture of what the dog is like. An untitled dog in someone's backyard that no one knows about other than the breeder and the breeder's decoy is more risky to buy a pup from than a dog that has research potential. If someone buys on titles only with no research or questioning they could run into trouble I agree, but when a dog is genuinely titled, someone will know what the dog is like, if it scraped through the title or is generally a good dog.

Duke
What you are saying in effect that you are the TOP man when it comes to grading dogs. and i say that because you are now talking about a Female from a well known kennel known to you and you were the helper on the biting work of that Dog so you should if you are any good as a helper know the bite quality of the Female but it does not solely end with the bite that is not the all and be all in Protection by a long way. Yes a good hard full bite with confidence but lets be fair the Helper is not always right every time top helpers make mistakes and ruin a dogs bite, i saw that happen only the other week with my own dog. The Helper messed it up
However to get back to this Female then i guess she was not a lot of good but got a passing score in the protection phase. and she got her ScH 111 by scraping through and because she is from a top kennel people are gulible and think she is better than she really is. Well unless they know the full truth it will remain that way . However they can ask the breeder what scores the dog got on getting her titles 1 11 and 111, then decide for themselves
Of course to me the Female is very important in a mating perhaps i think even more than the Male, for me a Female has to have it all and here i will be shot down
I want a Female with impeccable proven bloodlines of top scoring work at National and International Level. The Female has to be ScH111 with good scores not passing scores. She has to be Korclassed 1 or 11 preferably 1, If possible V rated with top Joints, and so the mother of my next Pup is all of those above
So The Fathers Breeding is impeccable as the female above, He is ScH111 with good scores. He has top Joints and is Korclasse1 V rated
Now i should hope that the Puppy to be will carry on as its parents have done and its G Parents and even later generations etc. But we all know they it can go both ways.
The Point of me saying this is that you purchase the very best you can, You know the Quality of the breeding, you know the quality of the work rate in the family. So what do i or anyone else do.
Do i purchase this Pup with these credentials to it OR' do i go to a kennel and purchase a Puppy from a mating which has not worked for several generations, but may have been joint certified up to a point
Now i am asking you Guys which way does any one go, The first option or the second option because according to some on here the second option has as much chance as the first one in doing just as well.
Steve1

rexy , most of the times the male is known and the female not , and do you expect the breeder to tell you the bitch got passing points on a nighttrail

now steve , you are a pigeon man , you know that if a pigeon wins barcelona , that pigeon was the fastest , but everything you mention in the parents of your pup is influental by humans , KKL1 or KKL2 , points in a trail  and so on

another question steve , who would have bred his bitch to como , if he wasnot sold to ronny , but ended up in a pet home , and howmuch worse would his offspring be if he was used for breeding then