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by maywood on 10 July 2012 - 12:07
Hey man, I'm just giving you an example, like I said I don't know the situation at all. But yes, it is very possible they lack confidence in themselves and are teaching this behavior to the dog. Without any handling whatsoever. Also, based on your smartass reply I'm starting to notice you become quite the little bitch when someone disagrees with you. Don't ask stupid questions then!
Rass, I never said "a handler aggressive dog is not necessarily a confident dog." To the contrary.
Rass, I never said "a handler aggressive dog is not necessarily a confident dog." To the contrary.
by workingdogz on 10 July 2012 - 18:07
maywood wrote:
LOL, wow, you seem to read dogs about as well as you read people.
I'm much farther at the other end of the spectrum I'm afraid when it
comes to dogs my friend. I make no bones about it, I am NOT the worlds
best handler, nor do I ever see the need for me to take on a big tough
"rock'em sock'em" kind of dog. Evidently you don't understand that a
dog doesn't need to be some foaming at the mouth psycho that requires
a Louisville slugger for a correction to be an 'alpha dog'.
While I tend to prefer a dog with a little 'get up and go', I don't need nor
want some tough dog that has way more mad skills than I do. It's about
all I can muster to get through the assorted CD's, CDX's, SchH3's etc.
I don't need to add to my plate. So Maywood, you see what happens when
you assume?
As far as newbies at the field? Again, how very very wrong you are.
We have lost countless leads, collars, tug toys, tennis balls, tracking lines,
dishes etc over the years in our quest to 'help' newbies.
For that matter, we've even reached into our own pockets and paid trial
entries (*gasp*, even for alternate breed owners!)for a few that were
'down on their luck' or stuck between paydays, so please, with all
due respect, do not go 'there'.
My current prospect is now laying happily in the corner of the office, munching
away on his antler. He lives in the house, as a pet. He travels with me occasionally
when I am away for work. He stays in hotels and walks around city center's etc.
He goes to Starbucks, Petsmart etc etc
Does he 'bring it' to the working arena? Sure, but, he's a 'normal' dog when not at
some sort of training. Heck, if it's just me on the way to club, he rides shotgun,
*gasp*, but otherwise he must defer to the wife and take his spot in his crate.
It almost seems to me as though you are confusing "alpha" with a dominant
dog. There are plenty of true 'alpha' dogs that exist peacefully in families,
but a dominant dog is a whole nother mess to deal with.
Gustav, you owe me one, I spit my coffee on the screen reading your reply
|
@workingdogz Oh I'm sure from your POV you deal with "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" (that’s a good name for them I guess) all the time and have managed to get along quite well with them. In fact, I bet your one of those trainers who is so far into them you couldn't even train a normal dog anymore. This is the problem when beginners try to take a normal German shepherd dog to the schutzhund field. They run into guys like you who have totally forgotten how to train them and subsequently ruins them. I have seen this so many times it isn't even funny. But you should, if you can, try to consider the audience you are speaking to and keep in mind that you are working with a very different animal bred for a very specific purpose that the average Joe rarely needs in a family situation where children are involved. That "Alpha in nature" is a bunch of nonsense because these types of dogs end up competing with the children in establishing pack dominance. They become a huge liability/risk and have no business being in the family home. Don't necessarily disagree with some of the things you said though if that makes you feel any better. |
LOL, wow, you seem to read dogs about as well as you read people.
I'm much farther at the other end of the spectrum I'm afraid when it
comes to dogs my friend. I make no bones about it, I am NOT the worlds
best handler, nor do I ever see the need for me to take on a big tough
"rock'em sock'em" kind of dog. Evidently you don't understand that a
dog doesn't need to be some foaming at the mouth psycho that requires
a Louisville slugger for a correction to be an 'alpha dog'.
While I tend to prefer a dog with a little 'get up and go', I don't need nor
want some tough dog that has way more mad skills than I do. It's about
all I can muster to get through the assorted CD's, CDX's, SchH3's etc.
I don't need to add to my plate. So Maywood, you see what happens when
you assume?
As far as newbies at the field? Again, how very very wrong you are.
We have lost countless leads, collars, tug toys, tennis balls, tracking lines,
dishes etc over the years in our quest to 'help' newbies.
For that matter, we've even reached into our own pockets and paid trial
entries (*gasp*, even for alternate breed owners!)for a few that were
'down on their luck' or stuck between paydays, so please, with all
due respect, do not go 'there'.
My current prospect is now laying happily in the corner of the office, munching
away on his antler. He lives in the house, as a pet. He travels with me occasionally
when I am away for work. He stays in hotels and walks around city center's etc.
He goes to Starbucks, Petsmart etc etc
Does he 'bring it' to the working arena? Sure, but, he's a 'normal' dog when not at
some sort of training. Heck, if it's just me on the way to club, he rides shotgun,
*gasp*, but otherwise he must defer to the wife and take his spot in his crate.
It almost seems to me as though you are confusing "alpha" with a dominant
dog. There are plenty of true 'alpha' dogs that exist peacefully in families,
but a dominant dog is a whole nother mess to deal with.
Gustav, you owe me one, I spit my coffee on the screen reading your reply
by djc on 10 July 2012 - 19:07
1st @ Gustav:
" I gave you information on what one of the guide dog trainers said about the breed and confidence, which you chose to ignore because it doesn't fit your premise."
Even though it may seem that I ignored that comment, I didn't. Do you think that's something new?? Guide dog people have been saying that for at least 20 years! Some GSD's DO still pass their testing albeit not many. My point is ALL dogs, no matter what breed, benefit from socialization as you have stated. Of course the GSD has developed severe problems over those last 20 years or so. There's just no debate there.
Also, you say you go to families homes where the dog is afraid to go upstairs and into the basement, yet you also say that they treat their dog better than most humans get treated? Don't you think that has mostly to do with them coddling the dog and inadvertently reinforcing the fearful behavior?!! That's been my experience with those that hold their dog up too highly! They don't even realize what they are doing. Just a question... not a confrontation.
For your information, I am always open to learning new things no matter what I've learned, been taught and think in the present and the past. That's what makes for a person to continually grow and expand and become better. You are right in that it does take quite some convincing to change my mind once I've seen it and lived it, but I am always open to learning.
2nd @ Red Sable:
Still sounds to me like your female is afraid of men and you have probably reinforced that behavior to make her feel like she is doing the right thing. Just wondering why you think she has a reason? What did you mean by that?? If you mean that she is being appropriate with her aggression, because they have ill intent and are trespassing, then we are NOT talking about being INAPPROPRIATELY aggressive or fearful. If you mean she has had a bad experience with men, then absolutely she is acting out of fear.
"In my early years, I never socialized because I used to think socializing would make them too accepting of strangers, however, time and different dogs have shown me, it really has little to do with it. It is either there or not."
By continuing to make your statements that dogs don't need socialization, that it makes no difference at all, and that it's all genetics, you are disagreeing with your pal Gustav! lol
" Those who think it is crucial must have nerve bags for dogs IMO."
Socialization IS crucial to some and beneficial to ALL!! To infer that I think that, because all I have are nerve bags, is quite insulting and nasty on your part!! Do you realize you are coming across as a judgmental, argumentative and nasty person? (like so many on this board)To state ones opinions and have differing points of view is one thing, but to insinuate insults, and judge someone you don't even know is taking it too far. I have never intentionally insulted you! Just because we have differing points of view does not mean that we can not get along and respect each other.
3rd @ workingdogz:
"But a dog that is shoulder checking for his handler while guarding?
Thats usually a dog 'telling on' it's handler to the world.
It's the equivalent of the dog saying- I've had my ass kicked in
this blind one too many times".
It does not matter WHY the dog is displaying that behavior!! Whether it's genetics or if they've had harsh/abusive training or a maraud of other reasons!!! The dog is showing lack of confidence.
Debby
" I gave you information on what one of the guide dog trainers said about the breed and confidence, which you chose to ignore because it doesn't fit your premise."
Even though it may seem that I ignored that comment, I didn't. Do you think that's something new?? Guide dog people have been saying that for at least 20 years! Some GSD's DO still pass their testing albeit not many. My point is ALL dogs, no matter what breed, benefit from socialization as you have stated. Of course the GSD has developed severe problems over those last 20 years or so. There's just no debate there.
Also, you say you go to families homes where the dog is afraid to go upstairs and into the basement, yet you also say that they treat their dog better than most humans get treated? Don't you think that has mostly to do with them coddling the dog and inadvertently reinforcing the fearful behavior?!! That's been my experience with those that hold their dog up too highly! They don't even realize what they are doing. Just a question... not a confrontation.
For your information, I am always open to learning new things no matter what I've learned, been taught and think in the present and the past. That's what makes for a person to continually grow and expand and become better. You are right in that it does take quite some convincing to change my mind once I've seen it and lived it, but I am always open to learning.
2nd @ Red Sable:
Still sounds to me like your female is afraid of men and you have probably reinforced that behavior to make her feel like she is doing the right thing. Just wondering why you think she has a reason? What did you mean by that?? If you mean that she is being appropriate with her aggression, because they have ill intent and are trespassing, then we are NOT talking about being INAPPROPRIATELY aggressive or fearful. If you mean she has had a bad experience with men, then absolutely she is acting out of fear.
"In my early years, I never socialized because I used to think socializing would make them too accepting of strangers, however, time and different dogs have shown me, it really has little to do with it. It is either there or not."
By continuing to make your statements that dogs don't need socialization, that it makes no difference at all, and that it's all genetics, you are disagreeing with your pal Gustav! lol
" Those who think it is crucial must have nerve bags for dogs IMO."
Socialization IS crucial to some and beneficial to ALL!! To infer that I think that, because all I have are nerve bags, is quite insulting and nasty on your part!! Do you realize you are coming across as a judgmental, argumentative and nasty person? (like so many on this board)To state ones opinions and have differing points of view is one thing, but to insinuate insults, and judge someone you don't even know is taking it too far. I have never intentionally insulted you! Just because we have differing points of view does not mean that we can not get along and respect each other.
3rd @ workingdogz:
"But a dog that is shoulder checking for his handler while guarding?
Thats usually a dog 'telling on' it's handler to the world.
It's the equivalent of the dog saying- I've had my ass kicked in
this blind one too many times".
It does not matter WHY the dog is displaying that behavior!! Whether it's genetics or if they've had harsh/abusive training or a maraud of other reasons!!! The dog is showing lack of confidence.
Debby
by Chaz Reinhold on 11 July 2012 - 01:07
When I go to buy a puppy, I look at the parents, I study the pedigrees, and I know (hope) that the traits I am looking for will be reproduced. That is called genetics. What I do with him, is develope potential. You can promote some things, and you can ruin some things. Socializing is good for every dog, but it doesn't make the dog. Genetics, genetics, genetics. Otherwise, we wouldn't love the breeds we do. We could just go out and buy an Italian Greyhound and mold it into a GSD. Just isn't going to happen.
by maywood on 11 July 2012 - 16:07
To the OP: Don't be fooled by the pack animals that hang out on this board. Their whole goal is to muddy up the picture and spread disinformation with their long ramblings and smartass responses. Gustav has a tendency to think he is all knowing and when exposed to a new concept he apparently has never heard before he gets very offended and begins to act like a child in an attempt to discredit it.
Just remember, dogs learn from your behavior too and if you lack confidence around them as you’re raising them, this will affect them too.
by darylehret on 11 July 2012 - 17:07
And also, that humans learn from other humans, so if you hang out on an online forum with numerous A holes, you just might become one yourself. Except for Ibrahim, that guy's untrainable.
by Rass on 11 July 2012 - 17:07
Chaz Reinhold said:
When I go to buy a puppy, I look at the parents, I study the pedigrees, and I know (hope) that the traits I am looking for will be reproduced. That is called genetics. What I do with him, is develope potential. You can promote some things, and you can ruin some things. Socializing is good for every dog, but it doesn't make the dog. Genetics, genetics, genetics. Otherwise, we wouldn't love the breeds we do. We could just go out and buy an Italian Greyhound and mold it into a GSD. Just isn't going to happen.
This is the most concise information you will get. It is stated beautifully.
Dogs absolutley feed off of our behaviors... but the basic dog.. confident or not.. is still the basic dog. One dog may jump out of its skin if you do while another dog will not even raise his head off the floor. One dog will see you stiffen and open your eyes wider and become a nerve ball and be reactive.. while another dog will look at you and at whatever startled you as if to say, "Ho hum.. you are a total head case!"
The difference is genetics. Once the dog is on the ground you cannot change the genes... all you can do is work with what you have.
When I go to buy a puppy, I look at the parents, I study the pedigrees, and I know (hope) that the traits I am looking for will be reproduced. That is called genetics. What I do with him, is develope potential. You can promote some things, and you can ruin some things. Socializing is good for every dog, but it doesn't make the dog. Genetics, genetics, genetics. Otherwise, we wouldn't love the breeds we do. We could just go out and buy an Italian Greyhound and mold it into a GSD. Just isn't going to happen.
This is the most concise information you will get. It is stated beautifully.
Dogs absolutley feed off of our behaviors... but the basic dog.. confident or not.. is still the basic dog. One dog may jump out of its skin if you do while another dog will not even raise his head off the floor. One dog will see you stiffen and open your eyes wider and become a nerve ball and be reactive.. while another dog will look at you and at whatever startled you as if to say, "Ho hum.. you are a total head case!"
The difference is genetics. Once the dog is on the ground you cannot change the genes... all you can do is work with what you have.
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 17:07
@ Maywood , I am not all knowing, but I really don't think YOU will expose me to any new concepts. When people feel the need to go personal, which I consider defensive, I usually think of insecurity . Don't worry, I am not going to go down the personal road with you. Too many people are saying the same thing as me to be offended by some......Take care.
by maywood on 11 July 2012 - 19:07
Not so fast Gustav. Nobody's getting personal here; it’s about respect or the lack thereof. Your previous post was not only disrespectful to me, but it was disrespectful to the OP and the rest of the board and I'm calling you out on it. So don't sit there and try to spin this around as if I'm insecure or I'm getting personal or whatever bullshit you want to call it. Fact still remains; you presented a situation, asked a serious question, received a serious answer, and then proceeded to make a joke out of it because YOU weren't aware of it to begin with. I don't plan on going down any road with you nor will I lose any sleep over this. But it does seem a little obvious to me now why you didn't know lack of confidence in a dog may have something to do with the lack of respect in the person.
by fawndallas on 11 July 2012 - 20:07
OP - I have read through the posts here. Many, if not all, of the responders have some good insight; you just have to weed through the stong talk to get to the basics.
Here is my take. I am by no means a professional trainer (but I am working on it), so take this all with a grain of salt.
Socialization is all part of raising a dog for the home. How much and where all depends on how you intend for the dog to fit into your family. Here are my examples:
a. Rose - Genetics or not (she is a Back Yard Bred dog), she is my go any where, do anything dog. I have socialized her from day one. To her, all humans are her friends. That is what I wanted. Yes, in the beginning (8 weeks old), she hide between my legs most of the time. By 10 weeks, with daily outings and exposer to people and sounds, every person was greeted with a talk wag and a lick and all sounds were met with a disinterested reaction.
Problem: I missed socializing her with groups of dogs. Not intentional on my part, it just never occurred to me. This became an issue the 1st time I took her to a dog park. She freaked out the first time 3 dogs came running over to meet and greet. If she could have, she would have jumped on my head and stayed there.
Solution: I took her to the park on a daily basis for a week. I worked with her on training and confidence building with all the other dog activity. By the end of the week, she was still a bit shy, but was starting to engage the dogs in some play. After I thought about it, I am ok with this reaction, in real life, there should be no "good" reason that multiple dogs should come up to her for play time. My goal was to not have her freak out; being weary is ok. We got there.
~~~~~~~~~~~
b. Baron - He was not socialized outside of the home. He is the house protection dog. He has his pack and extended pack. Anyone beyond that is met with hair raised and very firm "go away" in dog speak. I have never had someone not get the hint the 1st time and leave out. I have trained him to leave the issue alone if commanded; this has taken professional help and daily reminder to always obey me. He will watch with his undivided attention though. His reaction was never taught, he just did it once he established who his pack was. I think this is an instinctive trait of all dogs; "protect the pack." I think you will get this even from a little designer dog.
Problem: I cannot trust him around anyone outside of my immediate family or even with the "extended" pack. One wrong move, and I am not 100% sure of Baron's reaction.
Solution: He is not allowed free reign when we have guest. He goes to his room and has quiet time. Now that I am " growing up," I have learned that I should have done many things different. You can teach a dog to be weary of all other people, yet not react in an unpredictable way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How I socialized and trained both dogs was the key. You are the leader. By instinct, dogs follow their leader. If you show hesitation, so will they; if you show confidence, so will they.
Good luck. Decide how you want the dog to fit in your family and socialize / train accordingly. Genetics or not, sounds like you have a good dog that you will do right by. You will make mistakes (all part of life). Your dog will forgive you. You cannot control the genetics, so do not worry over them. Work with what you can control and everything will be fine.
Here is my take. I am by no means a professional trainer (but I am working on it), so take this all with a grain of salt.
Socialization is all part of raising a dog for the home. How much and where all depends on how you intend for the dog to fit into your family. Here are my examples:
a. Rose - Genetics or not (she is a Back Yard Bred dog), she is my go any where, do anything dog. I have socialized her from day one. To her, all humans are her friends. That is what I wanted. Yes, in the beginning (8 weeks old), she hide between my legs most of the time. By 10 weeks, with daily outings and exposer to people and sounds, every person was greeted with a talk wag and a lick and all sounds were met with a disinterested reaction.
Problem: I missed socializing her with groups of dogs. Not intentional on my part, it just never occurred to me. This became an issue the 1st time I took her to a dog park. She freaked out the first time 3 dogs came running over to meet and greet. If she could have, she would have jumped on my head and stayed there.
Solution: I took her to the park on a daily basis for a week. I worked with her on training and confidence building with all the other dog activity. By the end of the week, she was still a bit shy, but was starting to engage the dogs in some play. After I thought about it, I am ok with this reaction, in real life, there should be no "good" reason that multiple dogs should come up to her for play time. My goal was to not have her freak out; being weary is ok. We got there.
~~~~~~~~~~~
b. Baron - He was not socialized outside of the home. He is the house protection dog. He has his pack and extended pack. Anyone beyond that is met with hair raised and very firm "go away" in dog speak. I have never had someone not get the hint the 1st time and leave out. I have trained him to leave the issue alone if commanded; this has taken professional help and daily reminder to always obey me. He will watch with his undivided attention though. His reaction was never taught, he just did it once he established who his pack was. I think this is an instinctive trait of all dogs; "protect the pack." I think you will get this even from a little designer dog.
Problem: I cannot trust him around anyone outside of my immediate family or even with the "extended" pack. One wrong move, and I am not 100% sure of Baron's reaction.
Solution: He is not allowed free reign when we have guest. He goes to his room and has quiet time. Now that I am " growing up," I have learned that I should have done many things different. You can teach a dog to be weary of all other people, yet not react in an unpredictable way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How I socialized and trained both dogs was the key. You are the leader. By instinct, dogs follow their leader. If you show hesitation, so will they; if you show confidence, so will they.
Good luck. Decide how you want the dog to fit in your family and socialize / train accordingly. Genetics or not, sounds like you have a good dog that you will do right by. You will make mistakes (all part of life). Your dog will forgive you. You cannot control the genetics, so do not worry over them. Work with what you can control and everything will be fine.
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