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by guddu on 28 December 2012 - 09:12
The gsd Bojar whose pedigree was posted earlier was last bred to a wolf as late as 1982, even though the program may have started in1955. I read that they continued till 1991 and about 1552 pups were produced. Is there an official online data base for these pups.
by aaykay on 28 December 2012 - 12:12
...and about 1552 pups were produced.
I think that would be a pretty decent critical mass to start a new breed with......and the breed was distinct enough to be recognized by the FCI. I am sure they might have had enough records of the breedings and the progeny, on the way to creating the new breed.
Now if the speculation is whether there is wolf genetic material introduced into the Czech GSDs, then that should be easy enough to prove via DNA testing, I would think ? I doubt there is any however, since the experiment was done pretty carefully and in a controlled manner, from what I read. Even in the days of Von Stephanitz, there used to be rumors of people in Germany trying to breed Shepherd dogs to tame wolves and he used to be pretty stern in dissuading such practices, since clearly nothing good was going to come out of it.
I think that would be a pretty decent critical mass to start a new breed with......and the breed was distinct enough to be recognized by the FCI. I am sure they might have had enough records of the breedings and the progeny, on the way to creating the new breed.
Now if the speculation is whether there is wolf genetic material introduced into the Czech GSDs, then that should be easy enough to prove via DNA testing, I would think ? I doubt there is any however, since the experiment was done pretty carefully and in a controlled manner, from what I read. Even in the days of Von Stephanitz, there used to be rumors of people in Germany trying to breed Shepherd dogs to tame wolves and he used to be pretty stern in dissuading such practices, since clearly nothing good was going to come out of it.
by guddu on 28 December 2012 - 22:12
Mixing wolf blood with gsd is speculation that is impossible to prove or disprove. Sequencing is expensive.....I do feel confident that there is no mixing in modern times. With literally hundreds if not thousands of wolf gsd pups, its entirely possible that some mixing might have occurred, accidentally of course.
by aaykay on 29 December 2012 - 14:12
I think wolf DNA brings with it quite a few bad undesirables, along with the positive aspects (like health, stamina etc) that people generally talk about. In the wild, the wolf is a highly evolved animal but for human domestic needs, the wolf is not a reliable animal to have around, and doubt his DNA would be very welcome. I would be seriously surprised if a highly controlled program like the Czechoslovakian experiment, would have had any such accidental introductions.
As part of the experiment, they might have diluted the wolf dna to see if the health effects stuck around, while the negatives faded away etc but the very fact that they then decided to wrap up the program and start a totally different breed around the program, is proof enough that the original objectives of the program were not met.....and doubt the regular GSD population was polluted by the hybrid DNA. But as with all such things, one can always speculate and try to resurrect something that was never there in the first place.
As part of the experiment, they might have diluted the wolf dna to see if the health effects stuck around, while the negatives faded away etc but the very fact that they then decided to wrap up the program and start a totally different breed around the program, is proof enough that the original objectives of the program were not met.....and doubt the regular GSD population was polluted by the hybrid DNA. But as with all such things, one can always speculate and try to resurrect something that was never there in the first place.
by guddu on 29 December 2012 - 18:12
What is interesting is that the early wolf-gsd hybrids looked like GSD's, eg
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1672532
but these days after many generations of breeding the wolf-dog as per standard, it look more like wolf and less like gsd's.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1672532
but these days after many generations of breeding the wolf-dog as per standard, it look more like wolf and less like gsd's.
by Hundmutter on 29 December 2012 - 21:12
Setting the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog aside for a sec :
Oh I bet there ARE a few GSD-Wolf hybrids still around; not because
serious GSD folk would still play around with the notion; but because
some were undoubtedly done about 10 years ago when there was a
fad [both sides of the Pond, I think] for wolf-mix pets. Cesar Millan has
had a few to deal with in California and elsewhere. Most of these were
wolf x one variety of husky or another, but certainly a few GSD based
ones were advertised. I doubt there was any penetrance into mainstream
purebred GSD breeding ... but we can't be sure, can we ?
Oh I bet there ARE a few GSD-Wolf hybrids still around; not because
serious GSD folk would still play around with the notion; but because
some were undoubtedly done about 10 years ago when there was a
fad [both sides of the Pond, I think] for wolf-mix pets. Cesar Millan has
had a few to deal with in California and elsewhere. Most of these were
wolf x one variety of husky or another, but certainly a few GSD based
ones were advertised. I doubt there was any penetrance into mainstream
purebred GSD breeding ... but we can't be sure, can we ?
by RICO4 on 31 December 2012 - 15:12
just came across this discussion and am looking to get in touch with a breeder of Czech working bloodline i live in Ireland and there are many breeders here but just not what I'm looking for if anyone could give me any info would be great thank you
by Prager on 01 January 2013 - 00:01
by Prager on 01 January 2013 - 00:01
Anybody who knows GSDs is able to tell if the dog is GSD or GSD wolf mix. To insinuate that secretly GSD was crossed with Wolf and nobody noticed is silly. This is how would such dog look like this is cross with GSD and Euro-Asian wolf
Prager Hans
Prager Hans
by Keith Grossman on 01 January 2013 - 00:01
Just playing the devil's advocate here...what would that dog look like, say, if one wolf was introduced into the bloodline 7, 8 or ten generations ago? Additionally, is that necessarily a bad thing?
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