low thresholds = poor nerves??? - Page 6

I disagree with you Hired Dog, but respect your opinion

Hank

vk4gsd  
If the dogs during their actions which according to your expalnation would be  antrophomorfization if they would be calle and according to you are jus  acts which are purely a function of training, exposure, saturation, confidence building, familiarity etc and a dogs genetic nervous structure  then please tell me  how these are not result of courageous acts in human? 

Also you do not think that dogs  are not aware of their own mortality?  Have you ever try to repell from the helicopter of cliff with the dog as I did on many occasions with several dogs thus I had opportunity to see that they  were at that moment terified of death? How could they be be terrified of death if they are not aware of their own mortality?

Prager Hans
 

Living or dying is not the motivation, it is the desire to conquer at what ever cost. The cost will never be the consideration. Fear exists, but the heart to conquer it is courage.
Hank

Slamdunc. there are many complex situations which warrant courage. However in order to understand an issue the issue does not need to be complex.  If I want to understand something I  brake it down to simplest of common denominators -  acts which are not complex. After all courage does not need to be based on complex situation.  Your definition is virtually same as mine. I think yours is more of bravery  though. 
Your 's is :".... would be taking action and going forward in the face of imminent danger, facing fear and moving past it. "
Mine is : Courage is ability to overcome fear. 
 I would like to say that I have seen many dogs display that ability in face of eminent danger which induced fear and they  overcame such  fear. I have in post above argued that dogs most definitely are aware of their mortality . If that would not be then they would not be afraid of dangerous  and life threatening situations.
Thus dogs do  recognize danger of jumping of the cliff,  they also know that if they jump into raging river then may drown and so on. However  courage  is not only based just on recognition of potential death. For example dogs know  that perpetrator of crime who caused them pain  may do it again  by they proceed with the action of attack such person again anyway.  They do it even so they are afraid of pain and do  not want to normally subject themselves to pain ( same as humans) , they have fear of pain, and overcome that fear in situation where in other situation they would not subject themselves to such pain which they normally fear.
I believe  that dogs can display courage and that humans can also display courage. They do it in different situations in different ways but in principle they do the same thing. They are overcoming fear. 
 
Prager Hans. 

hired dog . When someone  rappels from 3 feet with the dog then  the dog has also  "floor taken  from under them" but they are  not afraid because they know that they  may not die or get hurt. Where if the height is 15 feet they are afraid. Why? Because they know that they may die or get hurt.
You can teach broad jump over bunch of boards like in AKC and there is no  courage necessary.  But if you make a dog jump over same distance but over the canyon 100 feet deep then the dog will be terrified same as human being would be. That is  caused by fear of falling and dying or getting hurt. 


Also remember  courage is not only related to death and mortality but also to being subject to pain. Dog who got hit  most definitely know that person with stick may cause him pain. But the dog may  attack such person anyway.  On command or if protecting territory.  Same as Human would. If human does it we call it courage and if dogs you do not call it so? How come? They both know pain  and they consciously proceed anyway. 
Prager Hans
  

Hans, very interesting...do you mean to tell me the dog can gauge depth? Do you mean to say that a dog knows what 3 feet as opposed to 23 feet is like? Fear of heights is a born protective instinct, babies have it too, newborns.
I think you are attributing too much to an instinctive animal with a 2.5 oz brain and no frontal lobe to speak of.  Yes, a dog will keep going in the face of pain, yes, it will keep attacking, but, do you know why, since it goes against Nature?  The getting hurt part, sure, like I said earlier, knowing when to leave is a huge part of survival, but, why would a dog keep pressing the issue, if it KNEW for a fact that it could die?

See, its when we assign human feelings to dogs, human abilities and qualities that we screw up my friend. Soon we start thinking the dog has alterior motives, holds grudges, understands what duty and honor is and we start treating them in ways they were never meant to. 

I have gone up in Helicopters with dogs (with no doors on the Copter) and I have rode with dogs in land based vehicles.....dogs differently know the difference.

Jim, I FEAR you misread me, as usual.  I never said dogs or other animals do not show fear, that is not my belief.  I said if YOU want to remove courage from your philosophy, you may as well remove fear.  Without fear, there is no courage.  All vertebrate species respond with defense mechanisms, and most defense is BASED on fear INSTINCT.  Some defense behaviors are protective of more than "self" preservation, either of territory, rank status, guarding of food resources, or pack members.  THAT's why I have no idea how you can reward a track with a bite, and consider THAT to be working in defense drive!  It defies the definition of "defense", as I personally understand it.

Hired dog.  So you think dog can not tell differents between 3 feet and 32 feed in  depth below him? 
Also do you think that the person which goes against his/her insitinct to perform task is courageous but dog is not?