Bicolor? - Page 6

but, was she born with tan around her vent, or black?  that would be the answer -

molly

Another arbitrary rule to spread confusion... why wouldn't the OP's dog be bicolor then, since it was "born" that way?

Daryl even your comment indicates that you find that there is a distinct pattern for bicolor--such that there is a describable difference between "blanket back" and "bicolor".

It's not like I have blinders on, the differences are obvious. I'm just saying that because of the nature of this particular gene, there are various shades in between, wherever you choose to define their distinct differences. In my personal philosophy, there's an infinite amount of numbers between zero and one, and I don't beleive "whole numbers" truly exist.  Some of the same-general-phenotype differences we observe can be caused by incomplete dominance of the recessive trait (i.e., the patterned sable?), or interaction of the E-locus with agouti expression (i.e., color fading).

Like I said before, it's really semantics, it really makes no difference to me what-is-called-what, only that some sense can be made of it all in how-the-genes-are-expressed, and that we're not misguiding ourselves in the matter of what reactions are taking place.  If we're going to make any order out of the chaos, it's necessary to simplify to an extent, and I think that stipulations like requiring "this and this and this and that" in order to be termed bicolor is a lot of nonsense for what then only amounts to a small sliver of the breed population.  Knowing what's going on is more important to me than knowing what to call it.

One dog I owned I considered a solid black until he was about 8 months old. Never before did I notice the wheat colored hairs between his all of his toes.  It wasn't fading of any sort, the hairs were not blended in, they just were not visible unless you spread the toes.  No "vent", so per molly's definition - I don't know what she'd say, but to me still genetically "black", and at least I could be certain of what he would produce if ever bred to a black female -- pups with no more lighter colored hair than he himself  had.

I honestly do not recall if she had more than 1 or 2 tan hairs around the anal vent. She did have tan between all of her toes at 8 weeks.
And in argument to your "answer" of tan around the vent, I believe her actual genetic testing will be more proof. Genetics do not lie. My belief is that it will come back as at+a with a heavy masking gene.

I cant seem to post more than one picture - here are more -



toe marks and tarheels are still there, but fading...



Toe marks, tarheels pretty much gone, note brown behind the ears - not bicolor.

No, genetics do not lie.  Genetics say that if she is a bicolor she was born with tan around her vent - clearly and more than a few hairs.  I suspect she is genetically black with fading/bleeding.  I don't know about the genetic testing you are doing - is it for GSDs specifically?  The true test might be in breeding her - if she produces anything other than black if you breed her to a black, or if she produces bicolor (tan around the vent at birth) when bred to a black dog. 

would be interested to know more about the genetic testing you are doing - if it's targetting GSD color genetics only, or all breeds of dogs.

molly

This is GSD specific genetics testing. Like I said, her sire has the same markings, just slightly less tan. He is registered as a black because the Czech Republic does not recognize bi color. Plus, as soon as she started shedding her puppy fur and started getting her adult fur, it was coming in more and more as a bi color. As black dogs age, yes they can get bleed thru. This pup is 7 months and has continued to get more and more tan over the past 5 months. The chances of this being bleed thru at this age is pretty slim.

do you have pictures of the sire?  It should be pretty clear if he is black with bleed-through or bicolor as an adult.

molly

His pics do not show bleed thru. He does however have tan around the vent with tan between the toes. My pup has a tan vent, tan between all toes, tan around the front of all 4 paws mixed with black, tan on the back of her front legs, and tan around the inner portions of her rear legs. She has had the tan but it has become easier to see the past 2 months. Her tests should be back within the next 2 weeks.

They can develop light hairs between toes at early ages - usually not on the legs though until they are adult (if the dog is black with bleed-through).  Other blacks are 'solid" and bleed through later - and still others remain "solid" until they are much older.  Do any remain "solid" into their older years?  Not sure about that - I have Casch v Salztalblick who is 9 years old with no obvious bleed-through - not sure if he has any light hairs between his toes though, he doesn't like his feet handled and so I won't be doing that anytime soon LOL

I have another black dog Brix who is almost 6 years old and so far no bleed through.  Here he is, recent picture.  Both of his parents are dark sable.  Not sure if that makes a difference or not - it is possible - hmmmmm the previous picture of Kaos who is the black dog with bleed-through - his sire is black (with bleeding) and his dam is bicolor.  Interesting.