workingline best new stud - Page 60

Herding

Stirring up trouble??? LOL I can not believe you just said that. LMAO!! 

Well, no matter how you want to cut it, the quality of the dog-handler relationship is going to affect the overall appearance of the dog's willingness, to make it an even less quantifiable characteristic than one might hope.  Depends on the dog AND the handler.

Certainly!!! I had already factored that variable into my answer.  I never asked for the perfect test only the best as in the "best we can do".

Jeff,
Willingness does not make a Bloodhound a better tracker than a GSD, Mali or any other dog.  It is genetics and structure.  Has to do with what the dog was bred to do.  Ever seen a bloodhound?  There are some distinct differences between bloodhounds and GSd's. 

Are you back to arguing for the point of arguing or just trying to help out your buddy?

Jim

daryll , if you say FH tracking is not , can you tell me what according to you is the right way to measure a dogs scenting ability

 Quote: Jeff,
Willingness does not make a Bloodhound a better tracker than a GSD, Mali or any other dog. It is genetics and structure. Has to do with what the dog was bred to do. Ever seen a bloodhound? There are some distinct differences between bloodhounds and GSd's.

Bloodhounds are willing to track. I guess you never thought of that. It is ok, I forgive you. Daryl is doing his thing here. I do not need to help him. He is stating his opinion of Sch tracking and I agree that it is not a good test of scenting ability.

If I argue just to argue, and still win the argument, what does that say about your position on the subject ?

There are many on here that cannot see any other way of training, thinking, and get really butthurt when someone points out their opinion on a subject.

Now back to your bloodhound theory. If bloodhounds were really all that, then why are there so few of them ? LOL This is me arguing because I know what a bloodhound is and isn't. A good bloodhound is going to crush a GSD or Mal in tracking every day and then some. However, they are WILLING to do the task. Now train one that has no willingness, like I have, and come back and tell me something. They don't want to track, you are not going to get them to go. 

"what according to you is the right way to measure a dogs scenting ability"

Why would we NEED to measure it's ability to scent?  That's not what the sporting exercise is "measuring".  I think you'll find that ANY dog's capabilities are well within the limits of the test, as it has been designed for sport.

Daryl:  You said the following:

"I have a low personal regard for sport tracking. A TD once said to me, that sport tracking isn't really about the dog's scenting ability, as it is a representation of the dog's trainability in spite of what comes naturally to the dog."

"Should a dog be forced to trail nose methodically to the ground at a controlled pace, if it accomplishes it's objective equally well with a combination of air scenting and cutting corners? As with most tasks in all phases of the sport, grading for style takes precedence to results...... I just happen to dislike the formal charade of tracking, and in place of it, would rather do an article search, or an area find of a live subject."

"Why would we NEED to measure it's ability to scent? That's not what the sporting exercise is "measuring". I think you'll find that ANY dog's capabilities are well within the limits of the test, as it has been designed for sport."
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I don't think you understood what the TD was trying to tell you.  The one thing we know is all dogs have the ability to track, no one "teaches" any dog in the world how to track, they are born with that skill set, and most mutts have all the scenting ability in the world, (save for specialist breeds like bloodhounds) so it really has nothing to do with what dog can scent better than another.  We don't even understand exactly how a dog scents, so to suggest this is what should be tested is pointless.
 
What does NOT come natural to the dog, and what is being tested in schutzhund tracking, and what is of value and essential  ALSO in the real world, is to track what we want them to track, in the manner we want them to track and to track in drive.  Doesn't matter if it's air scenting or ground scenting because either way, the dog must do it as we want them to do it, it's a test of a dogs ability to do what we want them to do and do it in drive.  In schutzhund we want our dogs to ground scent, because originally it was to find lost evidence, which is what the articles represent.   When judged correctly the dog should have MUCH drive in the track, not poke along like a slow poke donkey on a loose line.  The dog should be in drive when tracking,  the handler holds a tight line and walks at a decent speed.  Why?  Because obviously in a trial situation you can't have every dog running at least a  mile long track, but you want to see that the dog has the drive to do the job.

An article search or an area find of a live subject might be more exciting for those who don't understand schutzhund tracking to watch, but it wouldn't be testing anything more than what is already being tested - a dogs willingness to track what we want them to track in the manner we want, to track until the end, in drive. 

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:

Is schutzhund tracking perfect - NO but then nothing is. On the other hand criticizing just to argue is not perfect either. Perhaps if you actually trained for it you would have a little bit better understanding of what is entailed. I do find that schutzhunds loudest critics are those who do not participate, in fact most people who have trained in the discipline still have respect for it, even if they switch to another discipline, because they actually understand what's going on from experience, a far different place than watching from afar, don't you think?

And Jeff: Nice try, the problem is people who argue for argument sake run the risk of becoming tiresome. Sometimes you are right, sometimes you are flat out wrong, sometimes your opinion is just that, your opinion, which holds about as much weight as all the other people who don't train in schutzhund but love to criticize it.

"We don't even understand exactly how a dog scents, so to suggest this is what should be tested is pointless."

Yes. Agreed.

"and what is of value and essential ALSO in the real world, is to track in the manner we want them to track and to track in drive. Doesn't matter if it's air scenting or ground scenting because either way, the dog must do it as we want them to do it,"

This is what I can not understand. WHY must the dog do it the way we want them to it other than to show the trainability and obedience.  There is no other reason. Let me repeat that for those that didn't hear.......THERE IS NO OTHER REASON!


FH tracking is challenging and difficult and a lot of hard work but it is an obed exercise for the dog. It is not a test of a dog's scenting ability at all. The thought that it might be is laughable. It's value in the real world it is through obedience and has nothing to do with teaching a dog how to track.