WL + SL = BL??? - Page 7

Darylehret,
I now understand (only after reading about it) the benefit of close linebreeding or inbreeding to highlight strong desired characteristics but does it also increase the potential for serious deformities?  Before reading about this I always assumed inbreeding was very bad and a big no no!  After reading "Breeding Better Dogs" by Kyle Onstott I was amazed to find out that inbreeding could highlight the desired characteristics but what they really don't mention or describe is the amount of puppies with undesireable characteristics that need to be "culled".  Again, no science backround here.  Before I read the book I assumed that inbreeding (or very close linebreeding) would produce severly deformed puppies....now I know that is not always the case.  But does it also produce puppies so poor that they would need to be put down.  If it does, then is it really worth the risk reward to carry it out (reasoning that if all went well the first generation or two might suffer for the betterment of the breeding program)?
Again, I apoligize for my lack of knowledge on this and I hope it does not seem that I am going around in circles.

Felloffher and Workingdogs understands exactly what I am saying....in terms of two important issues. 1) As long as you see the COLOR of the dog as a representative of show or working, you are missing the boat. 2) You can produce a nice dog from a show/work mix, but the ability of that dog to produce will not be what it is. So then your values come in, do you value utility or beauty. Until successful show dogs represent all colors,(bi, black, sable, saddleback), you will never correct the problems within the show ring of character and structure. I don't care how you spin it, it won't happen, hasn't happened, and really shows peoples likes having more influence then the love of the breed. I personally don't care what color a GS I own is as long as its within standard.
And I am not bashing SL, I am giving intelligent discourse on the subject for those who want to learn. Of course the addicted to what I like types will probably view this as bashing, but again their attitudes got the SL into the shape it is today, so why would I concern myself with their feelings?????

Generally you find people / buyers that have main focus of looks / color are the same people that will be drawn toward the SL breeders that hold the same values in their breed stock.

Close linebreeding/inbreeding has to be done very carefully, by someone who has studied the dogs involved and is aware of what they produce, and what the potential risks are. Do the risks outweigh the benefits? Sometimes. Rik will tell you of whole litters that had to be euthanized. Other times, everything goes as hoped for.

It's all about recessive genes. A certain percentage of these genes are recessive for a very good reason. They cause harmful or even lethal deformities.

Of course, when you cross closely related dogs, the chances of them producing offspring with two copies of the recessive gene (meaning they WILL be affected by that gene) are greatly increased.

Some breeders do test litters to expose recessives, so they will know which of their dogs are carrying them. This involves crossing two closely related dogs. The puppies are usually sold as pets, and the ones that show deformities are culled. Now that the breeder knows what dogs are carrying which genes, he/she can do close linebreeding with more confidence.
 
In the past there was a theory floating around that if you consistently did inbreeding, you would eventually expose and weed out all the harmful recessive genes. Anyone who has tried this has found exactly what scientists have found when they do the same thing. The offspring become fewer in number due to embryos not being viable (too many defective genes). There is a higher rate of stillborn offspring and perinatal mortality (young dying shorty after birth) and the lifespan of the offspring is generally shorter with each successive generation. The vigour of the offspring is decreased, and they have a much higher percentage of diseases (poor immunity, allergies, digestive problems, decreased size, infertility, etc.)

Here's an excellent article on inbreeding and linebreeding in horses. The principles are exactly the same when applied to dogs:

http://netpets.org/cats/reference/info/inbreed.html 

Another excellent article here, that explains some of the genetic terms:

http://www.messybeast.com/inbreed.htm 

Ma Shiloh, breed founder of the shiloh shepherd sums up the risks and benefits of inbreeding very succinctly:  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/inbreedi.htm 

  
Inbreeding can be a horrible CURSE , or a marvelous BLESSING! It is an excellent tool to be used by conscientious breeders looking for "deeply rooted" recessives! Inbreeding brings these "hidden secrets" out of hiding, so they can be properly dealt with. The great stuff can then be "polished" and strengthened through tighter inbreeding on that particular dog, the BAD stuff can be "washed-out" through identification & elimination! Inbreeding on "pedigrees" without extensive knowledge of the dogs themselves, their littermates, etc is without a doubt the most dangerous form of breeding! It is much safer to just outcross, or "type" breed! That is the reason that most novices are advised NOT to inbreed!!! Without a long-term breeding program in mind, and the resources and dedication to accomplish it , all such breedings are in vain! Worse of all, others will most likely continue to breed such dogs without having sufficient knowledge about their faults & virtues, thereby compounding this problem even more!
 

Sunsilver, I agree with the principle of what you say....BUT....smile, explain to me why the GSL breeders can't produce better general utility in the black and red lines. Certainly many of those breeders have forgot more about breeding than most and fall into the catergory of knowledge that I suppose would be a blessing.....yet I know of no GSL kennel that is known for producing consistent utility type dogs. My point is even knowledgable breeding practices will not stop decline of breed, if we breed for an end result of a specific color.

Gustav, it certainly COULD be done, but as Koos points out in his article, they seem to be quite happy with the current state of affairs.
How to get them to change...therein lies the rub! I really don't have a clue as to what will work to bring about change. IF someone wit the knowledge and experience of Helmut Raiser felt it was necessary to split from the SV, what luck is the average SV member going to have in getting things to change?

As hinted earlier, I think the idea of incorporating the B&T pattern into the workinglines on a larger scale would give them a good run for their money (pun intended).  Many of their clients have no involvement with the breed, working or showing, and would be none the wiser when they are inadvertently drawn to the workinglines for their "classic" color.  Then it can be more accurately in question, "what does the showline dog have, that the workingline doesn't"?

Gustav,
Are you in essence asking why the GSL breeders are not inbreeding and close line breeding their top working dogs in the red and black lines?  Than would be my question.
As for the whole "culling" thing....that is why I would never be a breeder!!!  I would have a bunch of two headed "pets" running around the place!!!   (Not a knock on the two headed line...just a saying)!!!  HA
But that would be my question...why aren't they?

Nypiper, have you looked at some of the SL
pedigrees? I don't think you could find one
that isn't heavily linebred.

It's not just about linebreeding/inbreeding.
The 'raw material' has to be there to start
with.
Even the 'best' workers (and there are some pretty
decent ones) in the SL cannot seem to reproduce
their work ethic/temperment on a regular basis.

Workingdogz,
That is a very bleak picture for the SL dogs IF it is true (I just don't know).  Why is it they can not seem to reproduce their work ethic/temperment on a regular basis?  Is it lack of good mates?  DO Good WL dogs reproduce their good work ethic/temperment on a regular basis more than SL dogs or are they also subject to the same laws of probability?