WGWL - Page 7

Strong prey and fight work fine without the risk of flight that can come with defense. It depends of what drives the dog brings to the training.

simple BW, barfight, crowdcontrol, attack on officer, if the dog facing the whitehouse fence jumper in his underwear head some defence that video showed a whole lot different
prey works fine when the suspect is running away but not all suspects do

The Whitehouse dog is a bit over used. One snippet of one dog and no knowledge of anything else about the dog, training or incident.

Thats what yr entire theory is built on.

Why does a dog need defense in crowd control? Dog can't bark in prey? Barfight? What does defense add to that situation? Moving humans...seems like the dog would have no issue staying in prey and still bite whatever moves. But yeah...in a small room a dog is more likely to enter defense and use it. Still...same outcome can be accomplished in prey.

Whitehouse lawn? Stretching. I know you're better than that duke and know that the dog didn't run because of it's lack of defense. Dog wasn't strong period. Didn't matter what drive he was in. On an open field, with a moving suspect, dog can easily react in prey. Once the dog was hit...doesn't necessarily NEED to go into defense to survive that situation. Like I said...my dog gets angry and definitely gets stronger when he's hit a little and fought with...but he's still in prey and won't let go of the sleeve unless really really really pushed to the point where in real life he'd probably be dead by that point. He has too strong of nerves and continues to stay there due to his desire to "kill the prey."

If we want to go as simple as frontal threat = defense, then the argument about IPO not having any defense is debunked as a helper is frontal in the blind and also on the guarding and reattacks in the open field. The attack on IPO is that we have dogs which even when presented with a frontal threat, don't go into defense and still react out of prey. So if its possible...genetically or by training...to produce a dog that can react to a traditionally "defensive" threat in prey, and still come out with the same outcome, why does it matter what drive the dog is theoretically in?

Again...I have no issue with defense, I have to work dogs in defense all the time. Most of the dogs I see don't have the prey drive to allow for prey work and teaching traditionally "defensive" exercises in prey. I love a dog with great balance in both drives, or better yet, an over abundance of both prey and aggression. It's possible that I just have a very different idea of what true defense is and how it comes out either on a sport field or in real life work. I personally see aggression as something separate from both of those drives and to me a dog can have that natural aggression and fight in either defense or prey...just depends greatly on the dog's genetics and the training.

Everyone's trying to make it scientific lol, it's a damn dog , a shepherd without a healthy amount of natural defense is useless , I don't care how he bites sleeves or heels or all that other bullshit ipo people do , I wanna see teeth , ears back , Foaming at the mouth and deep barks, eye contact 

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"I wanna see teeth , ears back , Foaming at the mouth and deep barks, eye contact "

You see all that in any decent IPO trial in the H&B. In fact you can train it without a decoy.

Whether a dog is primarily prey driven or defense driven, I want to see a dog that relishes the fight and wants to dominate the engagement. Pure and simple.

Shawnicus you’re proving the point…all you want to see is certain behaviors out of a dog. Why do you associate those behaviors with defense? At some point someone told you that the things you listed equal defense? There isn’t a dog out there that doesn’t show teeth when it’s barking. Not sure how foaming at the mouth matters at all to performing any kind of job you might ask your dog to do, you can get deep barks from a dog in prey that has aggression, and easily get eye contact from a dog during a bark and hold as well. You’re focusing on the “show” rather than caring more about the end goal. In either case, every single one of the things you’ve described can be done in prey. Don’t believe I’ve ever seen anywhere that mouth foam is an attribute of “defense drive.”

I do believe many of the things you’ve described are definitely done easier with a dog that has a certain amount of defense. But some dogs have that natural aggression that comes out just like defense when it’s actually just prey. Some dogs have a naturally deep bark, doesn’t mean defense, it’s just their voice, but I’ve heard plenty of “experienced people” just attribute it to defense when in fact the dog isn’t that defensive and just has a deep bark. Too often we take certain behaviors and just equate them to things we’re told at some point in our lives without any actual proof. The dog I have…I have no issues calling him a prey monster, but there’s plenty of aggression there, it’s one of the deepest and loudest barks I’ve ever heard. Might not foam at the mouth but there’s plenty of spit flying and I really don’t notice/care about his ears but just watched a video and they’re like half way up/down. Barks dead center and looks straight at the helper’s face. No defense really necessary, and I’m willing to bet if I didn’t say this to people, 75% would mistakenly call him working in defense.

Gustav says it plain and simple...

I have 3 close siblings of this dog , this is what I mean when I say a real dog and aggression , not that Whiny prey bark bullshit people are producing and claiming to be the real deal, specially you mr hans

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxFtXl0c48

There is a major  caveat in BW's argument that a high prey dog is necessarily better the dog which is readily defensive because it is harder to push the prey dog into defense, the latter also being the domain of flight.

I have observed dogs ( with high ball drive )  in that continue to chase a ball at very high speeds when IT IS NOT in their physical interest to continue to do so ( rapid metabolism of  pyruvate and very high lactate build up ); infact some of these dogs will literally run themselves to death. The reason why the dog continues beyond its own safety is that  suchg drive satisfaction is very closely related to dopamine release and learning by the limbic reward system. The dog quickly learns that if he chases this is the guaranteed way to a dpoamine release , which in turn act as a motivator to alloow the dog to continue to chase.

It is logically possible that in a subset of dogs defense drive satisfaction is also related to both the adrenaline and dopamine systems that propel the dog to remain in defense evne when IT IS NOT in the dog's physical interest to do so. I think th dog's to which Prager has become habituated is coming from this latter subset.I was also told about this phenomenon by the Bismack breeder.