Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 8

Susie - whether you believe it or not is entirely up to you.  The things that happened at that time are still present today because of the close inbreed that was taking place.

Mackenzie

Re: police k9, I know that my one boy, who is dual certified narcotic detection/cadaver dog, DOES go home at night with his partner.

   Chris, the trooper, tells me this is one of the best police dogs they have had. After work, he does go home with Chris, and is a part of the family, often sleeps with his 9 year old son.

   He is 85 lbs. Half showline/half DDR. The trooper loves him so mu h, he came and got a second dog (puppy) from me for his own personal dog. He does IPO with him.  Also, showline/DDR. He is a bit smaller.

Ps- I 'm with you susie on the Martin thing. HOW THE HELL DO ALL THESE  PEOPLE KNOW HE SWITCHED DOGS, did this, did that..blah,blah,blah...

   And there sure are alot of dogs from his time and kennel in most shepherds today. I guess no one knew about it til it was to late

@Ibrahim.....the moderate type SL dog you ask about DOES have the structure to do strenuous LE or Urban SAR( urban SAR today requires a nerve base that 90% of GS tested cannot pass because of inability to work confidently on large rubble piles), the problem is with that structure they are still required to have the nerves and resiliency to work extemporaneous in any place,people, or thing. You can do this type of work with varying structural types, you cannot do this work with non working nerves.

One of the most disastrous changes to the breed, (that further strengthen the split and helped alter structure mentally and physically) was the removal of the 6 foot straight wall from the Sch/IPO routine. This led to the decline of the breed physically and mentally. Why? .....because in order to be successful at scaling it required the dog to be athletic and mental fortitude. You see you can't just jump that high, so a dog had to launch themselves so front hits the top and then have the fortitude to pull themselves over. If a dog was non athletic or too big and soft, they weren't going to be successful. If they didn't have strong character, they also could be easily deterred or intimidated by the launch. As the SL became softer and heavier, it became a very big problem for these top show candidates and was stifling the direction the SL breeders wanted to go, so they created a straw man argument of it was dangerous to health of dogs( and maybe it was dangerous to heavy, too long stifle, too much angulation type dog they were evolving into, but wouldn't that be red flag that you are going in wrong direction???), so they created the A frame that ensured these newly minted dogs could continue. Here's the rub though, if the dog has the grit and character of the WL they can still do the Straight wall, but it was not only the structure that was devolving, but also the mental hardness to do the straight wall. For those of you who have the GS in Word and picture, there are plenty of pictures of the breed navigating a 6 ft straight height and more, whether it was wall, or window or building,the book clearly demonstrates this breed was expected to have this type of athleticness and structure for this. But the SV caved in to A frame, the dogs got bigger, bulkier, more angulated, and softer as time moved on.( if they really were concerned about health, they could have put platform halfway down the other side and have the dog down at the object thrown over the wall....). Still, they could have continued to reap the benefits of excluding the dogs that didn't have the physical structure or mental fortitude to do this. Today, at every police training facility I go to they have a 6 foot straight wall, they usually have platform on the other side, but they understand the value of that piece of equipment. Evidently, before we broke into lines they understood the value, because for decades and decades this was part of the breed worthy testing schematic ....when they eliminated the straight wall I knew the hand basket was coming. Jmo

 German Shepherd in KNPV jump exercises

I've had 8 month old puppies that could climb, jump, or drag themselves over a 6 foot vertical wall.  Big deal .. why not an 8 foot wall then.  If all GSD were destined to be police and S&R dogs that might need to go over a 6 foot wall then that would be great but agility dogs and obedience dogs do not need to clear a 6 foot vertical wall necessarily.  It all comes back to the same old BS from the IPO nuts .. if the dog can't do IPO then it should not breed which is a lot of BS.  Before there were x-rays for hips and elbows the 6 foot wall test had some practical use but it also causes repetitive use injuries from the constant abuse of the joints with landings from a 6 foot height.  The breeding of larger and larger male GSD by the SV and IPO GSD breeders is what did the damage .. not taking away the 6 foot wall.  I have had many dogs that could easily climb, clear and/or jump to the top of a 6 foot wall but so what .. I don't want them hurting themselves without a need or purpose to do so.  If the 6 foot wall dogs have to clear a 6 foot wall and then run 20 miles in 3 hours under hot weather conditions that would be more interesting as a precondition for breeding.  There is no one type of GSD that is perfect for all jobs a GSD can be asked to do.  Breeding the GSD for IPO and police work is stupid because both uses are becoming less relevant .. IPO is fading away and the police are using GSD dogs less for apprehension work (aka biting work).  I have and have had some police type GSD and they are not for everyone nor are they necessarily a good family dog or companion dog.  Too much dog for a lot of people to deal with when they don't need or understand that type dog.  Service dogs and family companion and family protection dogs need a good intelligent head and a good loving  heart  .. the dog that will run over a child to get to his ball because he doesn't know when to turn it off or the dog that jumps the 6 foot privacy fence is not necessarily a good GSD for some jobs that the modern GSD are called on to do.

Bubba, I hardly even know where to start to point out the errors and half-truths in your post!

Some things you said make me wonder if you truly read all of Gustav's post. Most GSDs with half-decent structure CAN jump a 6 foot wall. It's the lack of nerve that prevents  them from doing it. And sound nerves are a very important part of the GSD character as outline in the breed standard. As for it damaging joints, Gustav states clearly that most venues still using the wall have a landing pad to keep the dog from jumping down the full 6 feet, thus protecting the joints from strain.

Second, most police officers I've heard about take their service dogs home with them at the end of the day. This is correct GSD temperament. The type of dog that must be kenneled because it is not safe with children or family, or is too hyper to relax in a home environment. is not a properly bred GSD. At least in my opinion, anyway!

Third: IPO is on the decline? Where did you get THAT statistic from??

Breeding GSDs for IPO and police work is stupid?  REALLY?? Police and military work are two of the things this dog was originally bred for! You want the GSD to become a golden retriever??

If the 6 foot wall dogs have to clear a 6 foot wall and then run 20 miles in 3 hours under hot weather conditions that would be more interesting as a precondition for breeding.  Um, ever heard of the AD test, which is one of the requisites for an  iPO/ schutzhund dog? The dog must do a 20 km. run in approximately 1 1/2 hours. Maybe IPO isn't as irrelevant as you think it is! 

http://araxes.co.uk/AD_test_for_German_Shepherd_Dog.html

Most policedogs I know of are living with their families when not in duty, why wouldn´t a policedog who should have good nerves and stability of mind be able to deal with that? I suppose there will be different opinions what is a good GSDs, if looks and "breeding to the standard" is more important than workingdrives/character and a strong effective structure then obviously there will be a split in the breed. If the goal shouldn´t be a dog for duty then what is left more than a petdog or a dog who is a mediocre workingdog?

Bubba, I think different.
Shepherding - almost no flocks in Germany ( I think almost none in the USA, too)
IPO - still a lot of clubs around ( less than in former times, but enough to train on a regular basis )
Policework - they are always in need of good dogs
PP - for "specialists" only

So it´s less than in "former times", but we get to different conclusions

Your opinion:
Breed for pets, agility, companion, and family dogs

My opinion:
Simply breed less, but don´t change the mentality of a working breed into the mentality of a pet breed.

There is no rule on earth that says that the German Shepherd dog needs to fit into every household, sleeping on the coach almost the whole day, lazy and submissive, licking up the neighbours, and playing with the neighbours dogs, mistreated by unbehaved children ( Only for the record - I´m a proud mother )

The breeder of "real" German Shepherd dogs does have no idea where to place his dogs accordingly? In this case stop breeding, but don´t change the breed.

Susie, I am sorry I cant give you any more thumbs up.