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by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 05:01
Right now, I will wait untill more people support you from the list that I stated above from this board, right now you are alone.
What I mean by supporting you - is to give me valid reason why this Eastern European shepherds don't aggree with your logic of thinking "useless over 100 pounds".
What I mean by supporting you - is to give me valid reason why this Eastern European shepherds don't aggree with your logic of thinking "useless over 100 pounds".
by Jackal73 on 08 January 2010 - 06:01
Nobody is speaking up because trying to talk to you is a waste of time. For my part I'm working late and bored, so this is a way of keeping busy until some things I'm waiting for come through and I can knock off.
You're the one with the "revolutionary" thesis, it's up to you to prove it, not us to disprove it. You can't furnish evidence to the contrary when there's nothing to refute. Show me one video, just *one* of an Ovcharka excelling at KNPV, or Mondio, or one of the Eastern European equivalents, and we'll have something real to discuss. If you can't you've invalidated yourself by definition, and yet another of your threads will pass into obscurity for pointlessness.
Edited to add: And that's it for me. Goodnight all!
You're the one with the "revolutionary" thesis, it's up to you to prove it, not us to disprove it. You can't furnish evidence to the contrary when there's nothing to refute. Show me one video, just *one* of an Ovcharka excelling at KNPV, or Mondio, or one of the Eastern European equivalents, and we'll have something real to discuss. If you can't you've invalidated yourself by definition, and yet another of your threads will pass into obscurity for pointlessness.
Edited to add: And that's it for me. Goodnight all!
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 06:01
[quote]Nobody is speaking up because trying to talk to you is a waste of time.[/quote]
Is that your excuse - because you have no support:)
Since you are still alone, and nobody can prove to me for sure that Eastern European lines Shepherds are useless.
What I simply wanted to prove is that GSD's shepherds over 100 pounds are not useless.
Edit: I clearly understand what yoshy stated above and I thank him/her for the comment and as well from mariaartashes, Pharaoh.
Is that your excuse - because you have no support:)
Since you are still alone, and nobody can prove to me for sure that Eastern European lines Shepherds are useless.
What I simply wanted to prove is that GSD's shepherds over 100 pounds are not useless.
Edit: I clearly understand what yoshy stated above and I thank him/her for the comment and as well from mariaartashes, Pharaoh.
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 07:01
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 07:01
by mariaartashes on 08 January 2010 - 10:01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6piNFTug34&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0yQmKHinGo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIeJEadO9Hs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnRWFRtgsRM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQzogWdf6w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ZR0hbi6hc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4Xtet7VMg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2TTR-xwGY&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0yQmKHinGo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIeJEadO9Hs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnRWFRtgsRM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQzogWdf6w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ZR0hbi6hc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4Xtet7VMg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2TTR-xwGY&feature=channel
by Sunsilver on 08 January 2010 - 12:01
Thank you for this post, Shtal. As many of you know, I am interested in the Shiloh Shepherd. The breed founder's stated goal in creating this breed was to recreate the sort of German Shepherd her grandmother had raised IN POLAND when she was a child. These dogs were large, stable and made excellent watch dogs. Nearly ever business in her grandmother's town wanted one of these dogs to protect their shop, or the carts they used to haul their goods to market.
Some people have tried to tell me Tina only THOUGHT these dogs were big, because everything looks bigger when you are a child.
Now I have proof she was right. The dogs you describe are the sort of dog she was familiar with.
A large dog may not be quite as agile as a smaller dog, but it makes an excellent visual deterrent. When it comes to protecting the home agility is not so much of a requirement as it would be in police work, sport or herding.
Breed standards change over time, as the world changes, and the type of work the breed is asked to do changes. The show ring fancy breeders also change the way dogs look, and often not for the better.
No breed standard is cast in stone. If someone wants to breed these larger Eastern European dogs, I have no problem with it.
Some people have tried to tell me Tina only THOUGHT these dogs were big, because everything looks bigger when you are a child.
Now I have proof she was right. The dogs you describe are the sort of dog she was familiar with.
A large dog may not be quite as agile as a smaller dog, but it makes an excellent visual deterrent. When it comes to protecting the home agility is not so much of a requirement as it would be in police work, sport or herding.
Breed standards change over time, as the world changes, and the type of work the breed is asked to do changes. The show ring fancy breeders also change the way dogs look, and often not for the better.
No breed standard is cast in stone. If someone wants to breed these larger Eastern European dogs, I have no problem with it.
by yoshy on 08 January 2010 - 14:01
Well then for a dog who's purpose is to be an all around working dog. Jack of all trades. Where is the benefit of a larger shepherd?
I have yet to see anyone show me anything that supports there is a need for a larger dog!!!! Someone show me an actual working benefit? Something that 100+lb 30" GSD can do that my 85lb 25" GSD cant!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to see evidence supporting this theory that these dogs can keep up with normal breed standard high quality dogs in real working eviroments. I dont care about schh title. If you look across the board showlines and other breeds not even designed for work have been titled. I want to see solid prrof of durability in working eviroments and documentation of added benefit for there size.
Deterrent. ok. To me a deterrent is all about atitude not size for the most part. If you are met with teeth at the door and the dog has true intent i dont think 15lbs and 5" of height is gonna matter. When a dog brings a real fight to the outsider then i doubt they are coming in. I know I wouldnt.
I have yet to see anyone show me anything that supports there is a need for a larger dog!!!! Someone show me an actual working benefit? Something that 100+lb 30" GSD can do that my 85lb 25" GSD cant!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to see evidence supporting this theory that these dogs can keep up with normal breed standard high quality dogs in real working eviroments. I dont care about schh title. If you look across the board showlines and other breeds not even designed for work have been titled. I want to see solid prrof of durability in working eviroments and documentation of added benefit for there size.
Deterrent. ok. To me a deterrent is all about atitude not size for the most part. If you are met with teeth at the door and the dog has true intent i dont think 15lbs and 5" of height is gonna matter. When a dog brings a real fight to the outsider then i doubt they are coming in. I know I wouldnt.
by Jackal73 on 08 January 2010 - 16:01
These could be the dogs she was thinking of Sunsilver -- but they're an "eastern" breed, and so far as I know (mostly) remain that way. Was Tina thinking of the dogs from Communist side of things? The reason I'm questioning is I can actually remember multiple "oversized" GSD from when I was a child in Europe as well, and they were all genuinely oversized and around 45 kg in weight (fit) though I can't really tell you the height. They were just big GSD, not some separate lineage, bred by local people who had a dog or a bitch that they liked, and who wanted puppies, and who didn't know or care about conformation. And yes, there was absolutely nothing wrong with them in terms of functioning (they guarded property, led the blind, and herded flocks), though they weren't stand-out exceptional either. Well, aside from the fact that everyone loves *their* dog. My grandparents had one, a big male who must have weighed around 47kg, and he was a great dog. Full of brains and character. He was slower than the others, though, when it came to herding, and couldn't make the really tight turns that were sometimes necessary. They loved him in spite of this, and had smaller dogs who could do the work, so it wasn't an issue.
Thank you mariaartashes for some actual evidence that these dogs are *worked*. It's good to see. Now as to whether they're superior, there's still no one coming up with a working title for these fellows. Unfortunately my Russian's pathetic and not good enough to finding it. Can someone find me something that indicates that they actually use these dogs professionally? I know they're a non-entity in sport competition, but that doesn't mean they're not being used as service/working dogs... but again, where's the proof.
And before you get too excited Shtal, remember to distinguish. There's the Eastern European German shepherd -- which is just the shepherd bred in East Germany, Russia, Poland, etc. which was used as a police/military dog, and which is a decent worker (depending on the dog -- they have their stars and their slugs just like dogs in the West), and then there's East European Shepherd (that I call by it's other name, Ovcharka, to distinguish it from GSD -- though this unfortunately leads to confusion with the Caucasian Ovcharka) which is a *different* dog. The first is just GSD bred without really caring too much about conformation and the desire to produce working dogs. The second is a breed produced because the Soviet Union were trying to produce their own version of everything, and tout it as better than anything in the west. Distinguishing the two is difficult without being able to read the language, and I can't find anything in English, French, or German that talks about the workability of the Ovcharka.
Perhaps someone here on the board can fill this gap -- I know I'd be interested to learn. So far nothing shown is meeting the criteria of "superiority" though, or even "can do everything a standard shepherd can". Until that happens, I'm not convinced, and your preoccupation with size over substance doesn't construe proof Shtal. From what mariataashes says they no longer have the drives, etc. to be functional as a working dog aside from property protection/intimidation (which any dog with an attitude and a big voice can achieve -- I've seen people flinch away from a friend's Labrador retriever, who has a very loud warning bark but wouldn't hurt a fly). It's a shame there's no detailed examination of this -- I wonder where the drive was lost? Is it because the drive drops off once you stop infusing GSD blood?
I know the Shiloh shepherd's a softer dog than the GSD, but I always assumed this wa
Thank you mariaartashes for some actual evidence that these dogs are *worked*. It's good to see. Now as to whether they're superior, there's still no one coming up with a working title for these fellows. Unfortunately my Russian's pathetic and not good enough to finding it. Can someone find me something that indicates that they actually use these dogs professionally? I know they're a non-entity in sport competition, but that doesn't mean they're not being used as service/working dogs... but again, where's the proof.
And before you get too excited Shtal, remember to distinguish. There's the Eastern European German shepherd -- which is just the shepherd bred in East Germany, Russia, Poland, etc. which was used as a police/military dog, and which is a decent worker (depending on the dog -- they have their stars and their slugs just like dogs in the West), and then there's East European Shepherd (that I call by it's other name, Ovcharka, to distinguish it from GSD -- though this unfortunately leads to confusion with the Caucasian Ovcharka) which is a *different* dog. The first is just GSD bred without really caring too much about conformation and the desire to produce working dogs. The second is a breed produced because the Soviet Union were trying to produce their own version of everything, and tout it as better than anything in the west. Distinguishing the two is difficult without being able to read the language, and I can't find anything in English, French, or German that talks about the workability of the Ovcharka.
Perhaps someone here on the board can fill this gap -- I know I'd be interested to learn. So far nothing shown is meeting the criteria of "superiority" though, or even "can do everything a standard shepherd can". Until that happens, I'm not convinced, and your preoccupation with size over substance doesn't construe proof Shtal. From what mariataashes says they no longer have the drives, etc. to be functional as a working dog aside from property protection/intimidation (which any dog with an attitude and a big voice can achieve -- I've seen people flinch away from a friend's Labrador retriever, who has a very loud warning bark but wouldn't hurt a fly). It's a shame there's no detailed examination of this -- I wonder where the drive was lost? Is it because the drive drops off once you stop infusing GSD blood?
I know the Shiloh shepherd's a softer dog than the GSD, but I always assumed this wa
by Jackal73 on 08 January 2010 - 16:01
Ack! Forgot the character limit again. Sorry!
... assumed this was a deliberate choice on the part of the breeder. It would be very interesting to compare the breeding philosophy behind the production of the Shiloh and the Ovcharka to see at what point the drive drops off, and if it happens in response to a certain mass provided people aren't actively working to preserve it. (I add that caveat because I know that some giant breeds, like the Caucasian Ovcharka and the Tibetan mastiff can be very fierce. They're guardian breeds though, and don't "work" the same way a GSD, Malinois, or Dutch shepherd does.)
... assumed this was a deliberate choice on the part of the breeder. It would be very interesting to compare the breeding philosophy behind the production of the Shiloh and the Ovcharka to see at what point the drive drops off, and if it happens in response to a certain mass provided people aren't actively working to preserve it. (I add that caveat because I know that some giant breeds, like the Caucasian Ovcharka and the Tibetan mastiff can be very fierce. They're guardian breeds though, and don't "work" the same way a GSD, Malinois, or Dutch shepherd does.)
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