Looking for info on Pohranicni Stranze - Page 2

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Iwo von der Buscheckeis in this pedigree about 5x

Aida vom Dukenheim:(Xena?)
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/475396.html  Let me say first.
I can go only on what you get me as a pedigree material.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND!!!:
Here is  a example how pedigree data base info on pedigrees is not reliable. For example: Ben z Bolfu is HD 2/0 And not A(What ever 1/2 is?)You need ORIGINAL  copy of the pedigree IN ORDER TO EVELUATE THE PEDIGREES. I did changed Ben's hips to equivalent of a noch cugelassen. This wbsite does not provide for Czech evaluation.

We have here example of linebreeding and even inbreeding done well if you like super driven dog This pedigree is based on WUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1
SG Grim z Pohraniční stráže CS
1992
SZ 9110595
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)

Undrescored by inbreeding on ZM ZVV1 FH2 SCHH3
Iwo von der Buschecke

and othe rexcellent driven dog


 Like the pedigree if you like high driven dogs.:1. Ben z Esagilu -> Grim, Orry -.> Grim and  Athos ->Grim connection(Athos was my dog. As you can see I took his pic in fromt of Sahuaro) Athos is who is who in z Pohranicni straze(z PS). He is pedigree wise perfect. Kaso z Ps linebreeding is good. Kasso was also driven dog small, died young of tortion. 

  Tanja La Grua has inbreeding on Iwo von der Buschecke and Mery z PS. That probably digged out some HD gene and show itself at Tanja La Grua HD B
 Then we have
Klara :Poor Hips, elbows, super hard popular bitch.

I would not linebreed any more on Grim and eliminate anything with Klara.  Through selecting breeding the bad hips were pushed down but may come up if you let it.
 This is all I can do today. Sorry guys, have to go claen dog shit.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Grim z PSWUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1 Kkl 2

Very interesting thread, and thank you Prager for giving us some of your first-hand knowledge of Czech GSDs :) I always like to read about the Czech dogs, especially anything I can find on Gero....my dog looks an awful lot like him (except for being small..I've heard that Gero was on the large side for GSD? My dog is 65 lbs) and takes after the Czech side of his pedigree in temperament.

I know multiple dogs carried the name Tom z Pohranicni straze, but this is not the one most of us are familiar with. 

Thank you prager, much appreciated. One thing learned today for me, line breeding on tom bad idea ;)

daryll thats a pic of Ikar , son of tom grandson of cordon
the other tom is a grimm son , thats the only two I know of

I agree with most things what prager says about breeding , but respectfully disagree about linebreeding to certain dogs

you certainly can linebreed on certain dogs and loose the trait you dont want from the dog your linebreeding on , that is one of the great benefits of linebreeding , if you know how to use it

I will beg to differ with a few  things and first, Tom z Pohranicni Straze hips and elbows scoring I have not seen the bad hips and elbows at all and I am one that 1.  has visited czech and slovakia numerous times and detailed hundreds of dogs along with being invited to review production in the  Policia kennels.  The Blatenskeho zamku line does not show that to the extent either.  I have the numbers to be statistically significant  on this..  There are a few things that Hans is not sharing nor will I, (thank you Hans) of lines not to cross and so perhaps that is where people are seeing some problems.  (If you have ever seen a linebreeding on Mink, you understand)  A few of us that have taken the huge time and energy to learn this the old fashion way ( not by "internet research") and don't expect to give it up. 

Some  dogs did not produce at all here in the U.S and those are two of the dogs out west, (not with you Hans) 

I can appreciate what Hans is saying on many counts but the information and data I hold on Tom  and most of the Blatenskekho lines specifically shows an amazing number of good soundness.  (how was he crossed to get the bad stuff?)

Next, the Czech dog that we often see now has very much changed from the dog of the early 90's.  I'm sure I can get some agreement here from you old timers like me.  The new style dog was bred for sport purposes too and so more prey introduced and easier handlability.  (I think that is a word!)  

Maintaining old line bred dogs from Agar z Pohranicni Straze who was one of the last group to train in the Pohranicni Straze kennel before the country split in '91.  He is also by Gomo von Schiefferschloss, one of the foundation sires for the modern Czech German Shepherd, at that time.  Different work dog entirely from the sportier types today, not that the sportier types are bad, just different. 

I tried to attach pictures of a linebred Grim male along with a linebred Agar male to show the difference between the two.  Sorry, computer skills is something I can use help on.

The Arko Heky line I know well as these were Slovak not Czech lines.  Some of the Arko and Heky lines here in the US were crossed with some weak (in my opinion) East German lines and so a discussion of the real breed surveys on these east german dogs warrants a look.  On some of these East German dogs, Sharp was an attribute.  OUCH!  If you at the pedigrees of two dogs I had with Heky, both had and produced solid nerve and not this sharpness but those few weird East German dogs were not part of their pedigree.  Those solid nerved were Dick Bethme and Pascha Ga Ta.  I watched Heky work at  a nationals some decades back and he was one amazing dog and in my opinion, did not get enough good bitches to breed to because of economics of the country at the time. 



great discussion all,

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com

 

 

 

Thank you Hans and Nancy.

We all realize there were some great dogs of the time to breed upon from the Czech and Slovak lines of those days, but I want to ask; Was there also as much crap to filter through as well, or was the overall quality of the breed in better condition than it is today?  With the recent  frequent use of popular sporting lines from west german workingline, and a lot more use of showline dogs than before, my perception is that the Cz. and Slovak lines have lost a great sense of overall identity that they had retained at the time.  That breeders from the region lack a uniformity of goals, and less dependable quality is the result,

I think there are still the OLD breeders who have retained  their sense of the original working dog.  They just don't sell much if any, here.  German show dogs were used 2 and 3 decades ago well.  Those german showline dogs also competed as serious working dogs then.
I think the past dog was more sound because most countrymen could not afford to breed if the dog could not produce.  Many breeders here have difficulty putting personal feelings aside and have difficulty seeing the faults. 
The identity  has changed somewhat in that we have a branch of sport dogs.   Not so much from income from the states but in the early years of the sport, Japan, Italy, Austria bought Czech dogs for a lot of money.  Italy had several Ron von haus Bernhardt Mader (then on the Slovak team), and Pascha Ga Ta's sire's offspring regularly competing on their national team.  Germany had Gent Policia as one of the most popular stud dogs in the 90's. 
It was a fun time to watch competition because the overall strength of the dogs.  Agbar Bethme was grand. 
The true PS dogs were not subject to competition.   The police dog trials was the place to see them.  WOW.  But these dogs are not for everyone. 
I bought my first black russian terrier after watching one compete in police dog trial.  It was an amazing dog in strength yet still very social and personable with his handler, but not a dog for everyone.  They like to stop people.
We don't see dogs like Ciro Pohranicni Straze or Cordon An-Sat anymore.  But in my opinion, there is still amazing quality out there, just more inexperienced breeders who think a pedigree is the end all and forget to look at the dog.  (here)
Ok, enough of the memories! 
Hans?  You're a native and Jiri has long earned the reputation of a producer of dogs with ability to do the work. 

One more thing.  Can people entering their dog's pedigree in PD PLEASE do so correctly?   Velmi dobry ( or dobry) is NOT part of the dog's name!   Just my pet peeve.   Hans you can offer a great deal of help here!
N
www.westwoodkennels.com