Looking for info on Pohranicni Stranze - Page 3

 Great thread.

Thanks for sharing the information from your vast experience Prager and others! Very informative, as opposed to "how to keep your dog and cat apart"

Hopefully my girl has good hips..... LB is below. 
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Ben z Bolfu
5 - 5............................................. in VELMI DOBRY Klara z Pohranicni straze
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Tina z Pohraniční stráže CS
4 - 5............................................. in Majka z Blatenskeho Zamku
4,4 - 4........................................... in SG Grim z Pohraniční stráže CS

First of all let me say that Tom does not have bad hips or elbows. I did not say that.  He has Klara in the line which is notorious in producing for many generations bad hips and elbows in  dogs who are her progeny. Sometimes it skips a generation or two. But I would most definitely NOT linebreed on Klara that means on any dog which has her in the pedigree at all. That would include Tom.  It had been done but it comes out later and it will show up. If you do  research Klara, then you will see the bad hips are winding through the pedigrees like a red line for many generations. Even so Tom may not have significantly produced bad hips himself , then it comes out later in his progeny. The reason why tom did not produced many bad hips was Cordon An Sat his father who pushed it away with his dominancy. But Tom's progeny most definitely produced bad hips and the reason is Klara. Sorry for the wrong picture of Tom as someone pointed out. This is Tom z PS.

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Hans

thanks for the great pictures.  It's nice to see these.

I think at some point in time, HD will be looked at differently with genetics and that is that within the whole formation of the joint may be different genes causing a particular malformation or good formation at a particular section of the joint (I am skipping anatomical terms on purpose)  So, linebreeding on Klara who let's say produces (just an example !) a flattened femur head in the middle section.  Breeding with a known bloodlines that produces just the opposite might start removing the Klara effect.  



btw, I keep xray on file on all my dogs to watch for these patterns now.  Probably by the time I am dead, they will mean something! 
well, back to bloodlines.  As we talk about Tom z Pohranicni Straze, he also produced a huge number of very hard dogs.   Cordon An-Sat came through well on this one.

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com

Yes I agree with you Nanu. The scientific description is :  Polygenetic problem with irregular pattern. In other words we do not have a clue. Fred Lanting ( and I highly recommend his books on HD) had a great way to describe the problem. It is like 2 decks of the cards. Sire's deck and Dam's deck .Let say the  hearts are genes for bad hips. If you pull heart from top of the sire's deck and the dam's deck you will get bad hips in a progeny. More different hearts cards on the top of the decks,  more different reasons for bad hips. All dogs have all these deck with same cards. It is then important through selective breeding push the hearts cards to the bottom of the deck and get the more favorable ones to the top.  Also it is always important to push the statistical bell curve to the favorable side. I look at hips this way:  Breeding (excellent to good), working(excellent to borderline and sometime grade one HD) and bad.  
Anyway Tom was great dog thanks to mainly Cordon, Iwo and Klara. I wish all dogs would be as good as Tom Z PS.
Klara z PS SP/PS, ZVV2, SCHH3 Kkl 2
I understand why everybody wanted to breed to her ,..what en excellent example of working bitch!!!!

Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

by outcrossing the decks keep shuffeled maximum , result , low predictability

by linebreeding you can influence the position of the cards

so linebreeding on Tom,Grim etc doesnot guarantee bad influence from klara at all

prager , what can you tell us about cordons littermate cent ansat ,I got a young male at my club linebred three times on Cent

Someone mentioned earlier that even some of the czech lines are bred diffeent now......more prey for the sport.

We know this is the case for the West German working dogs.

What would be the main differences between the working dogs of 25 or so years ago and the working/sport dogs of today?

What was the difference between the West German and Czech dogs of 25 years ago?

THANKS to all for such a wonderful thread. It's quite refreshing to read informed posters disscussing serious topics (unlike the OTs and my pup won't stop chasing her tail, what should I do?). Oh, and I love the zPs history lessons and insights. Please keep it up and thanks again.

To duke1965
Yes  by linebreeding  you influence the cards. Thus with linebreeding on Tom you are also linebreeding on Klara and that is bringing the bad HD cards to the top of the deck. That is what linebreeding does.  It is better to outcross on a dog with deck which has (so to speak)  bad hips cards on the bottom of the deck which would be in this case best/safest done by linebreeding on dog which is hips improver and that will improve the progeny in that  breeding. For example if you outcross on a wolf you will probably have no bad hips for about 3 generations. (Wolfs are strongly linebread in confines of their pack and region). However if you do not pay attention after 3 generations they will come to the surface again.  Also I have said  that Cordon is the reason why Tom himself  produced good hips, but his progeny if attention was not payed, produced bad hips in larger numbers . Thus if you linebreed on Cordon you are doing well.
  As far as Grim goes he does not have Klara in his pedigree. Now understand that as it was said several times here HD is caused by different genes. Thus sometimes if you have dog with bad hips with one type of a gene of bad hips and outcross it on another dog with different gene who also causes bad hips you may get decent hips. Keep in mind that  often you need these genes on sire's and Dam's side in order to produce bad hips.  The good example of that is breeding of Gero z PS(KlaraHD influence) to Grim line (Ben z Bolfu HD influence) produces decent hips. 
 To DUTSS
there are now mainly three strains of dogs in Czech : Show , Sport and old style work. 25 years ago it was only work. this is explained best on Prey : Defense ratio. work is 50:50. sport is in favor of prey sometimes considerably . And I am not going  talking here about show. If you want the old style work dogs  they are still there if you know where to go. The only thing what preserves these dogs is demand by PDs here in USA and by people like you. Schutzhund most definitely does not promote them.
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com  

50:50 ratio of pray:defense creates extremely stable dog and at the same time this dog can excel in sport and real life which is the way most dogs should be. I would sacrifice few points on SCH field for a dog like that in a heart beat. Too bad there is so many breeders that breed for sport and not enough that breed dog for a total package.  

I don't believe that you sacrifice defense with the addition of strong prey drive, it just seems that way because a lot of dogs are pronounced in either one or the other while the other side lacks.  You can have a 50/50 balance of tendency to work in both drives, either pronounced, or insufficient.  AND still have a clear head and be stable for a family environment.

Prager mentions Gero zPS, but I believe means Gero z Blatenskeho zamku (2-3 on Klara).