Country of Origin - Who breeds the better dog - A civil discussion ;-) - Page 1

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CSMHM0

by CSMHM0 on 07 February 2010 - 19:02

First a little history which will give you some insite into my perspective

Along with my wife Sheila, we have been breeding German Shepherds for 30 years. We have concentrated on American lines and have had some reasonable success - having produced a Grand Victrix(US version of Siegerin) and several high Select Males(US version of VA) in the US and Canada. In that time, as students of the breed we have continued to watch and learn about this most wonderful of breeds the German Shepherd. We have observed thousands of animals in that time(from all origins).

Our breeding philosophy is simply based on what I like to cal the three T's(Temperament, Type, Transmission). In otherwords, does he act like a GSD, does he look like a GSD, does he move like a GSD of course according to the standard. I encourage everyone to re-read the standard As a breeder my job is to focus on the dogs we produce and continually strive to improve in an attempt to produce the animal that most closely represents the standard.

Now on to the discussion:

Regardless of origin, we have seen both good and bad examples of the breed. Each of the countries go through cyclical changes(or fads) sometimes to an extreme, this is a result of what I like to call "purpose drivin breeding". If we go back to the roots of the breed and what it is named, this is a herding dog. Yes the GSD is the most versatile breed ever created. But that does not allow for an excuse to vary a breeding program so far from its roots to alter the design to fit some other function.

Speaking of US dogs, the most recent structural fad in the late eightys to mid ninetys was very extreme rear angulation resulting in an egg beater affect and dogs that couldn't work. But please keep in mind there were still many dogs beeing breed that didn't not represent this fad, they were just not "in favor" at the time. Like all things the pendulam swung back or moderated. The US dogs are now much closer to the standard(at least structuraly) tho we still have issues.

Current US concerns: I've seen an increase of DM in some areas of the counrty, an increase in missing teeth, an increase in straight fronts, some collie like heads and we still see some males who lack masculinity, I've also observed some concerns in temperament in some lines of late. On the plus side, better substance and straighter bones, some shortening of the overall length and a better overall working animal. The work on orthepdics over the past twenty or so years has resulted in a drop to

Current Imports: I've seen an increase in severe roaches coupled with steep croups, a dramatic rise in dysplasia(I hear there is consideration to move the a stamp to two years mirroring the ofa), some extremely sharp dogs(for qualification here, my club offers weekly training - I see an import requireing remediation about once a month - working on one right now that has bit the owner three times)... Short stifles, and rears that don't fall through, . On the plus side: Excellent pigmant, great secondary sex characteristics. On this last years Seiger tapes, I saw two or three pleasing stud groups, of those about half the dogs were very nice. I will follow those two sires.

Breedwide conerns: Health and longevity should still be a focus, with gastrol intestincal issues, DM, EPI, EPM and other afflictions.

What are we focused on in our breeding program: I absolutely adore my 11 year old male, who can still pull me accross the living room floor in a game of tug without issue. Unfortunatley I do not have my own son of his, we will be working on a replacement. He is the closest to the standard we have breed. Excellent in nearly every aspect. No longer an active stud, we will implant frozen.

For those shopping for the perfect addition to their family, the key is still the same:

CSMHM0

by CSMHM0 on 07 February 2010 - 20:02

For those shopping for the perfect addition to their family, the key is still the same:
We recommend finding a breeder with a lot of experience that can navigate all the bloodlines regardless of origin and can answer effectively what they hoped to accomplish with any particular breeding. We suggest visiting as many breeders and litters as possible top help you develop your eye and narrow your criteria for the next member of your household. Ask the breeder what he thinks his line lacks(if he has a line, he should be able to answer this). I would also ask the breeder to critique their breeding stock, if all you hear is that they are the greatest thing since slice bread, don't walk away - RUN

Good luck in your pursuit of the best dog on the planet.

with respect

Michael & Sheila Metz
Lindenhill German Shepherds



Dawn G. Bonome

by Dawn G. Bonome on 07 February 2010 - 21:02

Who breeds the better dog? The breeders who breed by the SV Standard here in America, and in Germany and Europe. If the dog is not physically or mentally sound,  and cannot do the work, (SCHUTZHUND),  then THEY ARE NOT BREED WORTHY., and cannot be bred PERIOD!

You speak of HD in the German Import, it is also in the American Shepherd. I doubt that HD will ever be eliminated. The breeders try,  and it STILL comes thru. Never know when it will show up.  
ALSO... How close are the American Shepherds lines? What about your lines? How close? Dallas was THE STAR and EVERY AMERICAN  LINE SHEPHERD breeder went to him. 



This is just my opinion.

Just curious... who are the 2 German males that caught your eye?

Keeping this civil.

Dawn Bonome

 


by Ibrahim on 07 February 2010 - 21:02

Please give complete form for:
DM
EPI
EPM
HD (in above post)

I could not find what they stand for from the dictionary, What you said above is just like a summarry of where the breed stands today, very interesting and organized, hope to see comments and argues of same value and to the point.

Thanks
Ibrahim

Dawn G. Bonome

by Dawn G. Bonome on 07 February 2010 - 21:02

Hi Ibrahim,

DM - Degenerative Myelopothy
EPI - Pancreatic Insufficiency
HD - Hip Dysplasia

As for EPM, never heard of that one, but when you own a German Shepherd you learn something new everyday.

Dawn

 


by Ibrahim on 07 February 2010 - 21:02

Dawn,

You are great, thanks, Hip Dysplasia I know I thought HD stands for something else in your post. Thanks a lot

Ibrahim

Lief

by Lief on 07 February 2010 - 22:02

To answer that You really have to look at dog breeding in general, Germany will always be the Fatherland with regards to selective breeding More dog breeds were developed in Germany than any other Country in the World, scores of them  and conformng to standards is the norm .We cannot compete with ''German Engineering'' God knows we have had plenty pf time to come up with dog breeds in this country  over 200 years though granted the Atlantic Ocean was an obstacle when it came to aquring the Original Bloodstock in the pre Jet Era  Our most notabable contribution seems to have been turn the APBT loose on the Free world...poor bastards

CSMHM0

by CSMHM0 on 07 February 2010 - 23:02

"by Dawn G. Bonome on 07 February 2010 - 21:02

Dawn G. Bonome

Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 04:07 pm

Who breeds the better dog? The breeders who breed by the SV Standard here in America, and in Germany and Europe. If the dog is not physically or mentally sound, and cannot do the work, (SCHUTZHUND), then THEY ARE NOT BREED WORTHY., and cannot be bred PERIOD!

You speak of HD in the German Import, it is also in the American Shepherd. I doubt that HD will ever be eliminated. The breeders try, and it STILL comes thru. Never know when it will show up.
ALSO... How close are the American Shepherds lines? What about your lines? How close? Dallas was THE STAR and EVERY AMERICAN LINE SHEPHERD breeder went to him.
This is just my opinion. Just curious... who are the 2 German males that caught your eye?
Keeping this civil.

Dawn Bonome"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mikes response....


Dawn, I guess I'm not surprised, First - you give no cosideration that any other breeder on the planet can produce a quality dog. Which suggests you do not have a very open mind. I think that is just this attitude that has created the us vs them - which is totally non productive.

I will say this again, the GSD is a herding beed. The powers that be in the SV have moved away from that original intent. Tho there are still breeders there(out of favor tho they may be) that have stayed true to that fact. For me it is still the idea that one could produce the complete package not geared so heavily towards one venue(purpose breeding).

For me, I could care less about the origin, as I've said in other posts A good dog is a good dog isa good dog.

Regarding Dallas, yes many folks have used Dallas -  and I've said my peace elsewhere about that and will not regurgitate it here. Sufffice it to say, we are Dallas Free. He did not offer anything I did not already have.

The observations above - are just that observations. It would not prevent me from breeding one way or the other, it is about knowledge and research into the dogs I am interested in and there respective ability to reproduce there phenotype.

M

Dawn G. Bonome

by Dawn G. Bonome on 07 February 2010 - 23:02

Hi Mike,
Well... Most people that breed and that are breeders on this Database, do believe in the SV Standard, belong to the SV,  and abide by their rules, AND many are from Germany and elsewhere in Europe. BTW...these dogs STILL do herding! NOT just bitework.
It isn't about going around in a circle and posing pretty. There is more to a German Shepherd then that.

This is just my opinion.

Have a GREAT DAY!
Dawn Bonome

By the way... You started this post. What responses did  YOU want to see from people, knowing that most people have German Shepherds w/German lines?


CSMHM0

by CSMHM0 on 08 February 2010 - 00:02

That quite frankly is one of the largest urban myths perpetuated by low quality breeders playing the import card. Also suggesting you do not have the ability to grow and learn.

Again you make assumptions that other dogs outside of the SV can not do bitework - tho I still can not find the reference in the standard specifically calling for bitework

I can say that I know AM. Breds that will bite wihtout hesitation - more then you would guess I'm sure and others I would question. But I can say the same about SCHIII dogs I have met as well.

We have produced dogs that have jumped 6 foot kennels broken down glass patio doors to protect their family. So feel free to open my door, I assure you my dog will bite you if you attempt to enter without an invite.

I truly wish you good luck with your four footed companions, let me know when you are up here in the twin cities. I will introduce you to Lindenhill's Hayabusa .

BTW, Say hello to Mr York

regards,

M








 


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