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by Kaffirdog on 13 February 2010 - 12:02
I suppose Dwarves, just like epilepsy, is just around the corner for any breeder. One of my bitches produced a dwarf in the 1970's, but never had any more even when mated to a dog that had produced dwarves in another litter, which I obviously didn't know about at the time. She is 8 generations back in some of my dogs, never been any dwarves from that family in 30+ years. When you consider a dog like Uran was a dwarf producer, if he had been removed from stud, none of the influential breeders of German bred stock would have the dogs they have now, I just wonder what they would have had instead.
Margaret N-J
Margaret N-J
by Penny on 13 February 2010 - 13:02
And that all puts the matter into prospective too - thanks Margaret - its true. Dol g breeding is a mine field and we all should do as best we can, and only have polished floors no carpets to sweep anything under, then we would lessen our risk, but you know, they cannot ever be perfect, we can only strive for it. Mo.
by Liebe on 13 February 2010 - 20:02
As a new breeder can I ask the question from the experienced ones? Who asks questions of the stud dog owners in regard to
genetic faults? Do you ask if they have ever experienced a dwarf from the stud in question, whether they have thrown any odd colour, whether they have produced any pups that have soft ears, overshot jaws or even cleft palate's? I have been lucky and the stud dog owners who I have gone to have been open and honest with me, regarding known problems.
As I said before I do understand the benefits of not losing carriers from a gene pool as long as they are mated to clear's and any offspring then used for breeding should be tested too. Kesyra was honest and has admitted to having produced dwarfs and that she has further said that she would use a stud (carrier) on clear progeny which I feel is sensible (in keeping with my education and understanding of genetics).
Mo - you comment on Katrina's post and you say that its a problem that you'd steer clear of, from that are we to assume that you know all the stud dogs genetic history as well as that of your breeding bitches?
genetic faults? Do you ask if they have ever experienced a dwarf from the stud in question, whether they have thrown any odd colour, whether they have produced any pups that have soft ears, overshot jaws or even cleft palate's? I have been lucky and the stud dog owners who I have gone to have been open and honest with me, regarding known problems.
As I said before I do understand the benefits of not losing carriers from a gene pool as long as they are mated to clear's and any offspring then used for breeding should be tested too. Kesyra was honest and has admitted to having produced dwarfs and that she has further said that she would use a stud (carrier) on clear progeny which I feel is sensible (in keeping with my education and understanding of genetics).
Mo - you comment on Katrina's post and you say that its a problem that you'd steer clear of, from that are we to assume that you know all the stud dogs genetic history as well as that of your breeding bitches?
by Mark3 on 13 February 2010 - 22:02
Why oh why, can people not be mature and talk about these things impartially is beyond me. It’s like a health issue identified in bloodlines is taken as a personal attack as opposed to openness and honestly for the sake of the breed going forward. This should be about dogs, not people. I honestly wonder if threats are some way of warning people to back off and say nothing about perceived unethical breeding practices, so that those people doing the threatening can carry on and nobody says anything.
It is commendable that people are open and honest re dwarfism however, there is a difference about something that has happened 20 to 30 years ago and is common knowledge, and something that has happened recently and is not.
Hodie, I am sorry to learn about your litter; a horrible thing for any breeder to experience. Would you let us know if it was the test by the Utrecht university in the Netherlands that you used, as I too believed that their test for pituitary dwarfism gave a definite result for carrier or non carrier status. You say ‘this test‘, so I’m assuming that you are talking about this one. If so, I’d be interested to know if the samples were sent at the time of the research or after the link established and the test developed. Thanks.
It is commendable that people are open and honest re dwarfism however, there is a difference about something that has happened 20 to 30 years ago and is common knowledge, and something that has happened recently and is not.
Hodie, I am sorry to learn about your litter; a horrible thing for any breeder to experience. Would you let us know if it was the test by the Utrecht university in the Netherlands that you used, as I too believed that their test for pituitary dwarfism gave a definite result for carrier or non carrier status. You say ‘this test‘, so I’m assuming that you are talking about this one. If so, I’d be interested to know if the samples were sent at the time of the research or after the link established and the test developed. Thanks.
by hodie on 14 February 2010 - 02:02
Let me clarify..... I did use the U of Utrecht test for the gene discovered to cause pituitary dwarfism. And the test was negative. Based on what I know of genetics and research and many personal communications with the researcher involved, I believe the test is accurate FOR THAT ONE ANOMALY in the genetic makeup. And he has bloodlines identified, as well as information about where the mutation probably comes from and other breeds affected etc.
But what I am saying is that there are other causes for dwarfism and those causes have yet to be clarified and the responsible gene/genes discovered. Clearly, my three had some other genetic defect that resulted in a severe stunted growth and specific characteristics referred to as dwarfism.
And yes, it was heartbreaking experience. I cannot tell you how painful it was to realize what was going on, see the terrible skin issues arising and not be able to do anything treatment wise that helped. it was heartbreaking to see the other siblings grow and leave the others weighing only a few pounds. I separated them as soon as I realized what was happening and spent a huge amount of money trying to treat them, without success. I cannot count the tears I shed.
Further, just try explaining to the owner of the mate that the two dogs produced such a problem. One receives all too often outright disbelief and denial and then anger. So no, I do not discuss it in detail. I can understand how with so much misunderstanding that people have and how so many people do not understand the most basic information on genetics that information on such a condition cannot realistically be shared openly. I think we should be able to speak about such things, but, regardless of how much we all say we think we should be able to do so, there are a lot of reasons why we cannot. Sad state of affairs......but realistic.
The bottom line is that dwarfism exists in the GSD breed, and others. Eventually all the primary causes will be discovered and tests developed. But most breeders will not use any test, even if it is available. Just think of this.....in humans, we have so much knowledge of genetic defects that produce serious problems. We cannot even get most humans tested, and even if we do get people tested, so often they choose to ignore the risks and the advice of geneticists.
But what I am saying is that there are other causes for dwarfism and those causes have yet to be clarified and the responsible gene/genes discovered. Clearly, my three had some other genetic defect that resulted in a severe stunted growth and specific characteristics referred to as dwarfism.
And yes, it was heartbreaking experience. I cannot tell you how painful it was to realize what was going on, see the terrible skin issues arising and not be able to do anything treatment wise that helped. it was heartbreaking to see the other siblings grow and leave the others weighing only a few pounds. I separated them as soon as I realized what was happening and spent a huge amount of money trying to treat them, without success. I cannot count the tears I shed.
Further, just try explaining to the owner of the mate that the two dogs produced such a problem. One receives all too often outright disbelief and denial and then anger. So no, I do not discuss it in detail. I can understand how with so much misunderstanding that people have and how so many people do not understand the most basic information on genetics that information on such a condition cannot realistically be shared openly. I think we should be able to speak about such things, but, regardless of how much we all say we think we should be able to do so, there are a lot of reasons why we cannot. Sad state of affairs......but realistic.
The bottom line is that dwarfism exists in the GSD breed, and others. Eventually all the primary causes will be discovered and tests developed. But most breeders will not use any test, even if it is available. Just think of this.....in humans, we have so much knowledge of genetic defects that produce serious problems. We cannot even get most humans tested, and even if we do get people tested, so often they choose to ignore the risks and the advice of geneticists.
by Uber Land on 14 February 2010 - 02:02
People should be open about what their dogs produce.
I say this because this is the only way someone can make an honest breeding decision. I don't mean for all the dogs who produce dwarves to be removed from the gene pool, but it is helpful to know whether or not the dog you are breeding to does carry for it.
if you have a carrier for the defect, wouldn't you want to know who else carried for it, so you could choose a dog who was not a carrier?
I say this because this is the only way someone can make an honest breeding decision. I don't mean for all the dogs who produce dwarves to be removed from the gene pool, but it is helpful to know whether or not the dog you are breeding to does carry for it.
if you have a carrier for the defect, wouldn't you want to know who else carried for it, so you could choose a dog who was not a carrier?
by Kaffirdog on 14 February 2010 - 09:02
If there was a way to be open about a problem without a witch hunt kicking off, I'm sure more people would be. There are just too many people ready to slaughter a whole kennel/ bloodline/ breeder on the strength of 1 problem arising from 1 dog in the breeding program, provided of course, their own breeding is not involved in some way, jumping on someone elses bad luck or error with a sickening glee as if it somehow proves the perfection of their own dogs. Newcomers to the breed will be open as a rule, but soon learn the hard way to keep their mouths shut.
Sorry, all the while breeders are rivals and not allies, there will never be transparancy in the GSD, always been that way and probably always will.
Margaret N-J
Sorry, all the while breeders are rivals and not allies, there will never be transparancy in the GSD, always been that way and probably always will.
Margaret N-J
by missbeeb on 14 February 2010 - 09:02
Exactly right, Margaret. It's a crying shame, but there it is... it only takes a few gleeful jerks to prevent beneficial information being available to us all.
by kesyra on 14 February 2010 - 10:02
I totally agree with you Uber Land, I have always felt it is best to be open and honest........after all none of us set out to deliberately produce defects.
Some breeders do take it very personally when their dogs are found to produce a problem and choose to 'hush it up' for whatever reason. I also know of many breeders here in the UK, who are open and honest and obviously have the breeds best interests at heart.
However, I don't think many, if indeed any, breeders will come on this database and publish what defects their dogs carry, especially when a high proportion of users on here can't even be honest about who they are themselves and choose to remain anonymous, but are often the first ones to criticize other breeders and their dogs, often in a somewhat malicious manner.
Some breeders do take it very personally when their dogs are found to produce a problem and choose to 'hush it up' for whatever reason. I also know of many breeders here in the UK, who are open and honest and obviously have the breeds best interests at heart.
However, I don't think many, if indeed any, breeders will come on this database and publish what defects their dogs carry, especially when a high proportion of users on here can't even be honest about who they are themselves and choose to remain anonymous, but are often the first ones to criticize other breeders and their dogs, often in a somewhat malicious manner.
by Sue B on 14 February 2010 - 12:02
Hi All,
I have followed this thread with interest and up to now had no intention of contributing to it, until I read the heart wrenching experience Hodie described in her last post and those that came after it. All, reasonable , responsible posts portraying a variety of reasons why honesty in the Health issues of this breed is a problem. My heart goes out to Hodie and all those who have had to deal with a similar situation, as in the Epilepsy thread, I say again , there but for the Grace of God go I. But I too have cried my tears, as must anyone who has a love for dogs, when a fading puppy dies, be it because it had too difficult a passage into this world, or whatever else. We must all have cried buckets for one reason or another through our involvement in this breed and so to Witch Hunt, to be unable to sympathise and, or, to relate to the sadness some people have gone or are going through, is beyond my understanding and that of most like minded, reasonable people. Though much of what Kaffiradog has said is so very, very true, in that those who witch hunt the most are often those trying to deflect the problems away from themsleves.
Hodie, along with other posters here have identified the problem, honesty brings forth Witch Hunts, I know, I have been subjected to them, but as distasteful and upsetting as they are, one thing remained, like Hodie, Keysera, Sue Worley and all the other honest breeders here, I could hold my head up high because I had been just that, honest. Other than my desire to be open and honest about anything connected to this breed, the people who see fit to critisise and Witch Hunt me would have very little to satisfy their nasty natures.
Luckily I purchased my first Shepherd from a strong, honest, no messing Yorkshire woman who called a spade a shovel and with a doggedly determination to get to the truth of a problem in a discrete , caring manner. She made a progedy of me and over the many years I have spent in this breed without her, her teachings are still my foundations, they are what keep me grounded, most just plain honest, common sense, but oh so very helpful in many situations. Here are a few that might bring light to some of those who desperately need it. Though I hasten to add, not all, are necessarily aimed at the honest ones here but are a lessen some others could do to learn.
Her first ever piece of advise was to tell me, "Either grow a thicker skin or you need to get out of the breed ! ", "Your far too soft to survive", she would say, "You need to Stop caring so much about what other people think, to be true to the breed you must first be true to yourself, then just get on with it !!" Boy oh boy, was that a worthy lessen to learn. The second was to "Listen and Learn" and the third to use the information wisely and the greatest one of all, "When breeding do your Homework and if your homework turns out to be rubbish, find out where you went wrong so that you DONT REPEAT THE MISTAKE". And the moral of her teachings were ............................................................................................
I have followed this thread with interest and up to now had no intention of contributing to it, until I read the heart wrenching experience Hodie described in her last post and those that came after it. All, reasonable , responsible posts portraying a variety of reasons why honesty in the Health issues of this breed is a problem. My heart goes out to Hodie and all those who have had to deal with a similar situation, as in the Epilepsy thread, I say again , there but for the Grace of God go I. But I too have cried my tears, as must anyone who has a love for dogs, when a fading puppy dies, be it because it had too difficult a passage into this world, or whatever else. We must all have cried buckets for one reason or another through our involvement in this breed and so to Witch Hunt, to be unable to sympathise and, or, to relate to the sadness some people have gone or are going through, is beyond my understanding and that of most like minded, reasonable people. Though much of what Kaffiradog has said is so very, very true, in that those who witch hunt the most are often those trying to deflect the problems away from themsleves.
Hodie, along with other posters here have identified the problem, honesty brings forth Witch Hunts, I know, I have been subjected to them, but as distasteful and upsetting as they are, one thing remained, like Hodie, Keysera, Sue Worley and all the other honest breeders here, I could hold my head up high because I had been just that, honest. Other than my desire to be open and honest about anything connected to this breed, the people who see fit to critisise and Witch Hunt me would have very little to satisfy their nasty natures.
Luckily I purchased my first Shepherd from a strong, honest, no messing Yorkshire woman who called a spade a shovel and with a doggedly determination to get to the truth of a problem in a discrete , caring manner. She made a progedy of me and over the many years I have spent in this breed without her, her teachings are still my foundations, they are what keep me grounded, most just plain honest, common sense, but oh so very helpful in many situations. Here are a few that might bring light to some of those who desperately need it. Though I hasten to add, not all, are necessarily aimed at the honest ones here but are a lessen some others could do to learn.
Her first ever piece of advise was to tell me, "Either grow a thicker skin or you need to get out of the breed ! ", "Your far too soft to survive", she would say, "You need to Stop caring so much about what other people think, to be true to the breed you must first be true to yourself, then just get on with it !!" Boy oh boy, was that a worthy lessen to learn. The second was to "Listen and Learn" and the third to use the information wisely and the greatest one of all, "When breeding do your Homework and if your homework turns out to be rubbish, find out where you went wrong so that you DONT REPEAT THE MISTAKE". And the moral of her teachings were ............................................................................................
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