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by bazza on 06 April 2010 - 19:04
I think if you look at the VA1 Siegers listed here alone you will ( hopefully) see your assumptions are way out.
by Dingodog on 06 April 2010 - 19:04
Bazza
I said would looking at the most recent Siegers (VA1) qualify. I meant I have looked at them, and no, to me they are still not correct, being overangulated and having an incorrect back.
What is interesting is looking at the Sieger winners throughout history.
I said would looking at the most recent Siegers (VA1) qualify. I meant I have looked at them, and no, to me they are still not correct, being overangulated and having an incorrect back.
What is interesting is looking at the Sieger winners throughout history.
by bazza on 06 April 2010 - 19:04
I agree it is most interesting I believe it's called evolution, thank goodness for evolution.
by pacosbear on 06 April 2010 - 23:04
Dingodog stated "I said would looking at the most recent Siegers (VA1) qualify. I meant I have looked at them, and no, to me they are still not correct, being overangulated and having an incorrect back" and there we have it folks dingodog knows more about the breed and what is correct than the top SV judges, perhaps she is really balding claire.
by Dingodog on 07 April 2010 - 08:04
Bazza
Some say evolution, some say devolution.
Pacosbear
What is it with you guys? Why are all your remarks are so childish?
I said to me, they don't look correct. Perhaps you should refresh some of your own knowledge and re-read Malcolm Willis' book the History of the German Shepherd, to understand how the SV works, selection of Siegers being controlled by a handful of men with a great deal of power, and a direct financial interest in the breed. As he said - it's not all it's cracked up to be. Here also a direct quote:-
" The breed in Germany is at a crossroads. It needs to take the correct turning, but there is doubt that it will. The danger is that in other countries, blind allegiance to SV ideas will be the norm" "and there is a danger, especially in Britain that the wrong signals will be picked up"
Just because they are 'successful' doesn't necessarily make it right, especially when vast sums of money are involved. When those with the power to select Siegers and direct the breed, have a direct (and huge) financial interest in the breed, do you think they are going to place dogs which do not match those which they wish to continue to profit from? I don't.
Some say evolution, some say devolution.
Pacosbear
What is it with you guys? Why are all your remarks are so childish?
I said to me, they don't look correct. Perhaps you should refresh some of your own knowledge and re-read Malcolm Willis' book the History of the German Shepherd, to understand how the SV works, selection of Siegers being controlled by a handful of men with a great deal of power, and a direct financial interest in the breed. As he said - it's not all it's cracked up to be. Here also a direct quote:-
" The breed in Germany is at a crossroads. It needs to take the correct turning, but there is doubt that it will. The danger is that in other countries, blind allegiance to SV ideas will be the norm" "and there is a danger, especially in Britain that the wrong signals will be picked up"
Just because they are 'successful' doesn't necessarily make it right, especially when vast sums of money are involved. When those with the power to select Siegers and direct the breed, have a direct (and huge) financial interest in the breed, do you think they are going to place dogs which do not match those which they wish to continue to profit from? I don't.
by Sue B on 07 April 2010 - 10:04
Dingodog, with all due respect, before you start quoting someone as eminant and knowledgable as Malcolm Willis in his own lifetime in regards to a written comment he made whilst attempting to predict the future, perhaps you should have the decency to ask the man himself what he now thinks, before blindly quoting his suggestion of a possible prediction.
To act as if Malcolms suggestion at predicting what could happen should, as you have suggested, now be taken as gospel that Malcolm believes it has happened, is really overstepping the mark and totally Out of Order.
Malcolm may be ill but he still has all his grey matter in tact and is still more than capable of assessing the current situation and had you kept abreast with his recent writings you would be aware of the article he wrote in answere to the Kennel Clubs recent stance, and if you are not perhaps you would care to read it, I believe it is on the Videx website, maybe David would post a link to it for you. Then come back and tell us what Malcolm thinks. I really cant believe you could be so insensitive as to totally quote Malcolm Wilis out of context in his own lifetime. Unforgiveable.
Sue B
To act as if Malcolms suggestion at predicting what could happen should, as you have suggested, now be taken as gospel that Malcolm believes it has happened, is really overstepping the mark and totally Out of Order.
Malcolm may be ill but he still has all his grey matter in tact and is still more than capable of assessing the current situation and had you kept abreast with his recent writings you would be aware of the article he wrote in answere to the Kennel Clubs recent stance, and if you are not perhaps you would care to read it, I believe it is on the Videx website, maybe David would post a link to it for you. Then come back and tell us what Malcolm thinks. I really cant believe you could be so insensitive as to totally quote Malcolm Wilis out of context in his own lifetime. Unforgiveable.
Sue B
by Dingodog on 07 April 2010 - 11:04
SueB
I am quoting from a book which he sold to the public - so no, it is not unforgiveable. It is in the public domain, and is largely accepted as the most important book written on the history of the breed. I am not quoting it out of context at all, I agree with what he wrote. It is not insensitive, and I really don't see why you are so offended by it.
If you write a book, it is in the public domain for people to reference at will, why should it not be referenced? That surely is why he wrote it in the first place.
To act as if Malcolms suggestion at predicting what could happen should, as you have suggested, now be taken as gospel that Malcolm believes it has happened I did not state in any way that he believed it had happened, I did not even state that I think it had happened.
Yes, I did see what he wrote about the Kennel Club, and it differs not much at all from what he wrote about the KC in the book at the time, the only real difference is that his opinion of the SV has changed in the intervening years.
I am sorry that he is ill, but I really don't see the relevance of that at all.
I am quoting from a book which he sold to the public - so no, it is not unforgiveable. It is in the public domain, and is largely accepted as the most important book written on the history of the breed. I am not quoting it out of context at all, I agree with what he wrote. It is not insensitive, and I really don't see why you are so offended by it.
If you write a book, it is in the public domain for people to reference at will, why should it not be referenced? That surely is why he wrote it in the first place.
To act as if Malcolms suggestion at predicting what could happen should, as you have suggested, now be taken as gospel that Malcolm believes it has happened I did not state in any way that he believed it had happened, I did not even state that I think it had happened.
Yes, I did see what he wrote about the Kennel Club, and it differs not much at all from what he wrote about the KC in the book at the time, the only real difference is that his opinion of the SV has changed in the intervening years.
I am sorry that he is ill, but I really don't see the relevance of that at all.
by pacosbear on 07 April 2010 - 12:04
DD
We can all look at a picture or a short video clip, however this is no substitute for seeing the dogs in real life. You state that the VA1's (in your opinion) are overangulated and have an incorrect back. May I politely request that you attend a show and watch dogs free gaiting (sorry you wont see this at a kc event) and listen to the judges verbal critique given at the end of the class (sorry again you wont hear these at a kc event). At the last breed show I attended any 'hocky' dog was severley penalised being placed at the rear of the class and listening to the SV judges verbal critique it was clearly evident why the dog was placed at the end of the line.
With respect to your comments re SV judges on the awarding of VA1 at the Sieger show, (and I do stand to be corrected by those more knowledgable in this matter than me) I was under the impression that the award is based on the years performance at qualifying shows as well as at the Sieger show. It is therfore my opinion that you have posted that (in your opinion) all SV judges are corrupt and only do it for thier own financial gain.
A little knowledge can be dangerous.
We can all look at a picture or a short video clip, however this is no substitute for seeing the dogs in real life. You state that the VA1's (in your opinion) are overangulated and have an incorrect back. May I politely request that you attend a show and watch dogs free gaiting (sorry you wont see this at a kc event) and listen to the judges verbal critique given at the end of the class (sorry again you wont hear these at a kc event). At the last breed show I attended any 'hocky' dog was severley penalised being placed at the rear of the class and listening to the SV judges verbal critique it was clearly evident why the dog was placed at the end of the line.
With respect to your comments re SV judges on the awarding of VA1 at the Sieger show, (and I do stand to be corrected by those more knowledgable in this matter than me) I was under the impression that the award is based on the years performance at qualifying shows as well as at the Sieger show. It is therfore my opinion that you have posted that (in your opinion) all SV judges are corrupt and only do it for thier own financial gain.
A little knowledge can be dangerous.
by Doppelganger on 07 April 2010 - 12:04
"At the last breed show I attended any 'hocky' dog was severley penalised being placed at the rear of the class and listening to the SV judges verbal critique it was clearly evident why the dog was placed at the end of the line."
Presumably the owners did not realise or would not acknowledge the dogs were 'hocky' or else surely they would not have entered them - and I expect they had previously been shown and probably placed or even won - and this is the point i have been trying to make, if the owners/judges of these dogs cannot see what everyone else can, what hope is there for the future of the breed if some people think these are correct.
I am sure I would know if a dog of mine was 'hocky' and I would not even consider entering it into a show, until such time as it had either tightened up naturally (if through age) or I had tried everything I could to strengthen the hocks through exercise. If it was an inherited condition then I would certainly not be thinking about breeding from it.
Presumably the owners did not realise or would not acknowledge the dogs were 'hocky' or else surely they would not have entered them - and I expect they had previously been shown and probably placed or even won - and this is the point i have been trying to make, if the owners/judges of these dogs cannot see what everyone else can, what hope is there for the future of the breed if some people think these are correct.
I am sure I would know if a dog of mine was 'hocky' and I would not even consider entering it into a show, until such time as it had either tightened up naturally (if through age) or I had tried everything I could to strengthen the hocks through exercise. If it was an inherited condition then I would certainly not be thinking about breeding from it.
by Sue B on 07 April 2010 - 12:04
Dingodog,
I have never insulted your intelligence so please don't now try to insult mine.
We both know you deliberately used that particular quote from Malcolm's book in an attempt to make valid your own point of view. Malcolm claimed the breed in Germany was at a crossroads and then expressed his opinion of what 'could happen', by doing so you inferred that Malcolm had correctly predicted what 'has happened' which is not necessarily the case, only a direct quote from Malcolm would confirm what he actually believes now. No matter how you try to dodge the issue, this is exactly what you implied and in my opinion, for someone to use a quote from Malcolm in an inappropriate manner in order to have him make their point for them, IS unforgivable.
A simple apology would have sufficed, instead you chose to try to deflect the issue by saying you read his recent article and saw what he wrote about the Kennel Club had not changed, well did you not also read what he wrote about Unsoundness? And if not , why not, it was within the same article? Obviously this proves what he wrote about the KC remains constant, whereas his possible prediction as to what may happen to the Breed in Britain if we blindly followed the SV is yet to be clarified by Malcolm himself , it is not for you and your opinion to attempt to do it for him. For all you know he may be Proud of what we have now achieved in Britain, after all he proudly packed off his wife Helen to stand for the GSD League Council last weekend, telling her to keep the Willis flag flying. That says far more to me of what Malcolm now believes than what you would otherwise try to have people believe.
I have the greatest respect for our Breed Geneticist, this honest, straight shooting Yorkshire man. Who is not only unquestionably intelligent and deeply knowledgeable about canine matters both genetically and anatomically, but who is still quite capable of delivering his own opinion thank you. So Yes I am offended by your misuse of quoting him and considering he is unable to frequent such message-boards in defense of any misuse of quotes, yes, I do consider you using him in attempt to validate your own point without first confirming what Malcolm himself now actually believes is insensitive. As Malcolm himself recently said , "I'm not dead yet !!"
Sue b
I have never insulted your intelligence so please don't now try to insult mine.
We both know you deliberately used that particular quote from Malcolm's book in an attempt to make valid your own point of view. Malcolm claimed the breed in Germany was at a crossroads and then expressed his opinion of what 'could happen', by doing so you inferred that Malcolm had correctly predicted what 'has happened' which is not necessarily the case, only a direct quote from Malcolm would confirm what he actually believes now. No matter how you try to dodge the issue, this is exactly what you implied and in my opinion, for someone to use a quote from Malcolm in an inappropriate manner in order to have him make their point for them, IS unforgivable.
A simple apology would have sufficed, instead you chose to try to deflect the issue by saying you read his recent article and saw what he wrote about the Kennel Club had not changed, well did you not also read what he wrote about Unsoundness? And if not , why not, it was within the same article? Obviously this proves what he wrote about the KC remains constant, whereas his possible prediction as to what may happen to the Breed in Britain if we blindly followed the SV is yet to be clarified by Malcolm himself , it is not for you and your opinion to attempt to do it for him. For all you know he may be Proud of what we have now achieved in Britain, after all he proudly packed off his wife Helen to stand for the GSD League Council last weekend, telling her to keep the Willis flag flying. That says far more to me of what Malcolm now believes than what you would otherwise try to have people believe.
I have the greatest respect for our Breed Geneticist, this honest, straight shooting Yorkshire man. Who is not only unquestionably intelligent and deeply knowledgeable about canine matters both genetically and anatomically, but who is still quite capable of delivering his own opinion thank you. So Yes I am offended by your misuse of quoting him and considering he is unable to frequent such message-boards in defense of any misuse of quotes, yes, I do consider you using him in attempt to validate your own point without first confirming what Malcolm himself now actually believes is insensitive. As Malcolm himself recently said , "I'm not dead yet !!"
Sue b
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