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by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 October 2010 - 03:10
Sure, but where is the base emotion coming from ?
There are a lot of people who will twist that into whatever fits their dog.
There are a lot of people who will twist that into whatever fits their dog.
by animules on 17 October 2010 - 03:10
This is one I've always liked........ www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/2127.html From way back.....
by duke1965 on 17 October 2010 - 06:10
a lot of people misstake sharpness for insecurety , but its a shortcoming of those people to properly read a dogs behaviour
but I must agree that many sharpness and territorial behaviour is based on insecurety , but I doubt that is what hans is referring to
the extremes hans is referring to , as in too much bred for certain traits that make better point dogs , is obvious
many toptrainers , even to WUSV level , dont know what to do with a dog with a normal balance in prey/defence , and say the dog is no good
people breed dogs in a certain direction , and mask their shorcomings by finding out tools to dig out of a dog ,whats hardly in there anymore
whipping , table training/boxtraining , all sorts of techniques are dug up to cover up the shortcomings of the dogs of today , with nobody remembering that what you breed is what you get
conformationwise the dogs changing is not something from the last 20 years or from the martin brothers or whatever
if you take the pictures from the siegers , lets say every ten years , starting with horand , you will see a very different dog every ten years , you know what they say about the eye of the beholder
but I must agree that many sharpness and territorial behaviour is based on insecurety , but I doubt that is what hans is referring to
the extremes hans is referring to , as in too much bred for certain traits that make better point dogs , is obvious
many toptrainers , even to WUSV level , dont know what to do with a dog with a normal balance in prey/defence , and say the dog is no good
people breed dogs in a certain direction , and mask their shorcomings by finding out tools to dig out of a dog ,whats hardly in there anymore
whipping , table training/boxtraining , all sorts of techniques are dug up to cover up the shortcomings of the dogs of today , with nobody remembering that what you breed is what you get
conformationwise the dogs changing is not something from the last 20 years or from the martin brothers or whatever
if you take the pictures from the siegers , lets say every ten years , starting with horand , you will see a very different dog every ten years , you know what they say about the eye of the beholder
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 October 2010 - 07:10
Quote:
the extremes hans is referring to , as in too much bred for certain traits that make better point dogs , is obvious
many toptrainers , even to WUSV level , dont know what to do with a dog with a normal balance in prey/defence , and say the dog is no good
I was asking what traits that are extreme in point dogs ? Almost by definition, a point dog is not extreme.
I still hate the term 'balance". It is goofy. There is no balance. If a dog has as much defense as prey, the dog is not what I have seen over many many years as "balanced".
When people say the dog is no good, is it because they have to work at getting the dog to work ? To me, if that is true, then the dog is no good. I do not want to build the dog up, I want to just work the dog. If the pup does not want to play with the rag, then what is the point ? I do not care about defense in the slightest. I see people poking little holes in their dog with defense. The dog avoids, the helper runs away and it goes back and forth. However the little holes are always there. Sch will not always point out those little holes, but ring does.
Quote:
a lot of people misstake sharpness for insecurety , but its a shortcoming of those people to properly read a dogs behaviour
but I must agree that many sharpness and territorial behaviour is based on insecurety , but I doubt that is what hans is referring to.
I have seen way too many people that cannot read a dog for the life of them in dogs. That is one of the biggest downfalls of the breeds. All of them.
I am still wondering what Hans is referring to. I have seen sharpness that has nothing to do with insecurity, but I can count on one hand those dogs. I see many "territorial" dogs that it is just a behavior that got out of hand, like fence runners. They never get any drive satisfaction, and so it gets worse and worse. Like playing with your dog with a laser.
the extremes hans is referring to , as in too much bred for certain traits that make better point dogs , is obvious
many toptrainers , even to WUSV level , dont know what to do with a dog with a normal balance in prey/defence , and say the dog is no good
I was asking what traits that are extreme in point dogs ? Almost by definition, a point dog is not extreme.
I still hate the term 'balance". It is goofy. There is no balance. If a dog has as much defense as prey, the dog is not what I have seen over many many years as "balanced".
When people say the dog is no good, is it because they have to work at getting the dog to work ? To me, if that is true, then the dog is no good. I do not want to build the dog up, I want to just work the dog. If the pup does not want to play with the rag, then what is the point ? I do not care about defense in the slightest. I see people poking little holes in their dog with defense. The dog avoids, the helper runs away and it goes back and forth. However the little holes are always there. Sch will not always point out those little holes, but ring does.
Quote:
a lot of people misstake sharpness for insecurety , but its a shortcoming of those people to properly read a dogs behaviour
but I must agree that many sharpness and territorial behaviour is based on insecurety , but I doubt that is what hans is referring to.
I have seen way too many people that cannot read a dog for the life of them in dogs. That is one of the biggest downfalls of the breeds. All of them.
I am still wondering what Hans is referring to. I have seen sharpness that has nothing to do with insecurity, but I can count on one hand those dogs. I see many "territorial" dogs that it is just a behavior that got out of hand, like fence runners. They never get any drive satisfaction, and so it gets worse and worse. Like playing with your dog with a laser.
by Ibrahim on 17 October 2010 - 07:10
Jeff & Duke1965,
What you're saying is confusing, really. If what you're saying is true then I will doubt the basics I know (actually I think I know) about dogs. It is also frustrating, I hope you are wrong.
Ibrahim
What you're saying is confusing, really. If what you're saying is true then I will doubt the basics I know (actually I think I know) about dogs. It is also frustrating, I hope you are wrong.
Ibrahim
by duke1965 on 17 October 2010 - 07:10
@ ibrahim , better doubt your basics then
by duke1965 on 17 October 2010 - 08:10
jeff , the most obvious extreme is preydrive , makes a lot of things easyer in training , you can start biting at young age less chance of loosing points in bitework and apport
you can hate the term balance but cant ignore the fact that every dog has certain levels of drives mostly referred to as balance , so every dog has a balance , but not everydog is well balanced
I agree with you that sharpness , not based on insecurity , is hard to find , but its still there ,
finally ,I understand why you dont care for defence as you are in ringsport , which is best performed by a dog whos balance ways heavily towards the preydrive in the dog .
you can hate the term balance but cant ignore the fact that every dog has certain levels of drives mostly referred to as balance , so every dog has a balance , but not everydog is well balanced
I agree with you that sharpness , not based on insecurity , is hard to find , but its still there ,
finally ,I understand why you dont care for defence as you are in ringsport , which is best performed by a dog whos balance ways heavily towards the preydrive in the dog .
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 October 2010 - 08:10
How many dogs does someone have to work before they figure out what dogs are Ibrahim ? I have seen a few of your posts, and it sounds like you need to go out and work some dogs. A lot of dogs. Your basics are in the shitter.
A dog is what it is. Many try and use terminology to make themselves feel a little better about what their dog is. That is just a fact of reality. When you have to work to get a pup to do silly stuff like play with a rag, then the dog is not a quality dog.
When a dog is bored out of it's mind it will run a fence and appear ferocious. It is not.
Try and think who told you what you believe is true. I had good teachers that told me to watch the dog. Look at what is in front of you, and always evaluate. I watch dogs when others work them. I do not sit around and wonder about color or structure. It is a waste of my time. When you figure that out, and start going out and working dogs, you can see then what some of us are talking about.
A dog is what it is. Many try and use terminology to make themselves feel a little better about what their dog is. That is just a fact of reality. When you have to work to get a pup to do silly stuff like play with a rag, then the dog is not a quality dog.
When a dog is bored out of it's mind it will run a fence and appear ferocious. It is not.
Try and think who told you what you believe is true. I had good teachers that told me to watch the dog. Look at what is in front of you, and always evaluate. I watch dogs when others work them. I do not sit around and wonder about color or structure. It is a waste of my time. When you figure that out, and start going out and working dogs, you can see then what some of us are talking about.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 October 2010 - 08:10
Quote: inally ,I understand why you dont care for defence as you are in ringsport , which is best performed by a dog whos balance ways heavily towards the preydrive in the dog .
The character of the dog is what makes him great. Defense is going to get your dog run in ringsport. I have seen many nice dog get stuffed by a decoy, and not bite. The dog has to have strong character to stay in a fight that he never wins, and just takes punishment for.
Many people say that ring dogs are just prey, but what happens after the initial esquive ? Sure, some of it is training, but is it really all prey ? Here is another thing to consider, defense occurs when the dog is frightened. Prey happens when the dog is not frightened. Which will you have more faith in ? I have seen many Sch dogs that were trained in defense melt in a sport that is supposed to be "all prey". How do you explain this ?
Quote: you can hate the term balance but cant ignore the fact that every dog has certain levels of drives mostly referred to as balance , so every dog has a balance , but not everydog is well balanced.
Again, what good does a dog with equal amounts of prey defense do you ? And how about that little devil that lurks just right there, avoidance ? I see the Mal out there winning over and over and over. Even to the point where the GSD has it's own nationals and what not. That dog was forged out of the French and Belgian ring sports.
No dog is perfect, no breed is perfect, but it is a little concerning that we adjust training, but not thought processes. Balance is useless. the dog needs to work, and I cannot remember thinking I need some defense in training in a long long time.
Quote: jeff , the most obvious extreme is preydrive , makes a lot of things easyer in training , you can start biting at young age less chance of loosing points in bitework and apport.
I do not see that as extreme at all. My GF has little Teckel pups that play with my socks. They are 8 weeks old, and have no chance whatsoever of ever being extreme. None. Nada, Zilch. : )
The character of the dog is what makes him great. Defense is going to get your dog run in ringsport. I have seen many nice dog get stuffed by a decoy, and not bite. The dog has to have strong character to stay in a fight that he never wins, and just takes punishment for.
Many people say that ring dogs are just prey, but what happens after the initial esquive ? Sure, some of it is training, but is it really all prey ? Here is another thing to consider, defense occurs when the dog is frightened. Prey happens when the dog is not frightened. Which will you have more faith in ? I have seen many Sch dogs that were trained in defense melt in a sport that is supposed to be "all prey". How do you explain this ?
Quote: you can hate the term balance but cant ignore the fact that every dog has certain levels of drives mostly referred to as balance , so every dog has a balance , but not everydog is well balanced.
Again, what good does a dog with equal amounts of prey defense do you ? And how about that little devil that lurks just right there, avoidance ? I see the Mal out there winning over and over and over. Even to the point where the GSD has it's own nationals and what not. That dog was forged out of the French and Belgian ring sports.
No dog is perfect, no breed is perfect, but it is a little concerning that we adjust training, but not thought processes. Balance is useless. the dog needs to work, and I cannot remember thinking I need some defense in training in a long long time.
Quote: jeff , the most obvious extreme is preydrive , makes a lot of things easyer in training , you can start biting at young age less chance of loosing points in bitework and apport.
I do not see that as extreme at all. My GF has little Teckel pups that play with my socks. They are 8 weeks old, and have no chance whatsoever of ever being extreme. None. Nada, Zilch. : )
by Ibrahim on 17 October 2010 - 08:10
Jeff,
As you said you had teachers to guide you. Here we have no teachers to guide us, not all places are the same with necessary facilities, experienced professionals etc, not all countries and nations live in year 2010, a simple fact that you miss my dear. Maybe this is why I come to this forum to pick from guys with real knowledge, it is not pleasing when you find out there is no piece of info that can be taken for granted, not from you or anyone else. I wish what you said above about nerves, territorial protection is wrong, I don't say it is but I wish it is, let us see what some of the other guys who equal you or are better than yourself have to say about it. If it is true I will not be hurt as it will be added to the little info and knowledge I have.
Ibrahim
As you said you had teachers to guide you. Here we have no teachers to guide us, not all places are the same with necessary facilities, experienced professionals etc, not all countries and nations live in year 2010, a simple fact that you miss my dear. Maybe this is why I come to this forum to pick from guys with real knowledge, it is not pleasing when you find out there is no piece of info that can be taken for granted, not from you or anyone else. I wish what you said above about nerves, territorial protection is wrong, I don't say it is but I wish it is, let us see what some of the other guys who equal you or are better than yourself have to say about it. If it is true I will not be hurt as it will be added to the little info and knowledge I have.
Ibrahim
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