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by wuzzup on 24 June 2009 - 17:06
I bet the Germans start the pups learning things as soon as the eyes open and they start to walk around abit . Exposer to all things and they encourage the pups to bite, track and pay attention just like Deejays owner is doing with her pup. They make it fun and games for the pups as it should be . Thats probably their job not their hobby ! As far as dogs we send over their to be trained , Probably a lot of hard work and dedication ! Good early foundation work makes for fun and painless titling. JMHO
by Deejays_Owner on 24 June 2009 - 18:06
Happyday
You may enjoy this from Mohnwiese, Free heeling "B" obedience from puppy to the trial.
The 1st 2 lines say it all.
"The joy in working with the individual "dog" should be at first place.
The sporting successes come on second place."
www.grammozis.de/Freeheeling.htm
You may enjoy this from Mohnwiese, Free heeling "B" obedience from puppy to the trial.
The 1st 2 lines say it all.
"The joy in working with the individual "dog" should be at first place.
The sporting successes come on second place."
www.grammozis.de/Freeheeling.htm
by Sheesh on 24 June 2009 - 19:06
There are many ways to "title", quick and dirty, (the infamous midnight trials that people gossip about) slow and neat, happy and positive, compulsive....the list goes on. I have had a couple of "titled" dogs that didn't respond to "Platz", "Fuss" or a sleeve, let alone know what the heck to do with a dumbell. Money talks in ALL countries, not just Germany. I did not know ahead of time that the dogs were not actually trained, and was quite SHOCKED to see what the deal really was.
It takes a special trainer, dog, technique, and LOTS of time, energy and dedication to accomplish the above in a correct manner.
I love to see those baby puppies working with such focus at such a young age. It makes me smile!
Theresa
by happyday on 24 June 2009 - 19:06
Deejays owner - those video's are great on heeling - I really like the one with three pups.
It sounds like most of you feel that a dog titled in that time frame is done by quick and dirty method
When I see video's like I seen on this thread with the pups - that is why gives me my crazy drive - train train train train train - gotta have a pup like that.... my male has great food drive - so he works like that for the food - female 15 months - not so much.... but she is a great heeler at this point....
It sounds like most of you feel that a dog titled in that time frame is done by quick and dirty method
When I see video's like I seen on this thread with the pups - that is why gives me my crazy drive - train train train train train - gotta have a pup like that.... my male has great food drive - so he works like that for the food - female 15 months - not so much.... but she is a great heeler at this point....
by Liesjers on 24 June 2009 - 21:06
I bet the Germans start the pups learning things as soon as the eyes open and they start to walk around abit . Exposer to all things and they encourage the pups to bite, track and pay attention just like Deejays owner is doing with her pup. They make it fun and games for the pups as it should be . Thats probably their job not their hobby ! As far as dogs we send over their to be trained , Probably a lot of hard work and dedication ! Good early foundation work makes for fun and painless titling. JMHO
Yes and no. Yes - the good foundation thing, good foundation is key. But that's just the thing. Take a 1-2 year old dog (who wasn't really getting a foundation and thus has to be shipped off for training by someone else) and send it back to Germany and it comes home titled in less than a year....hmmm, that's not really good foundation or fun and games. That's fast training methods that get quick results. The end result may be the same - the titles - but just watch a dog like this train or compete next to a dog that really *did* get a great foundation and some good training and you don't have to be that experienced to see the difference.
I believe in pressure - but does to much pressure mean I sacrifice "quality" in their training and would this pressure be applied to soon at a young age to accomplish my goal mess my pup up?
The pressure I was talking about is more literally, lots of physical pressure in training. Instead of building a good foundation with lots of positive reinforcement, fun prey drive, etc the dog is pressured into certain behaviors and then the reward is the removal of the pressure. Dog learns the faster he bites that sleeve hard the sooner all the trainers will leave him the heck alone. That kind of pressure. Sure it gets results but I'd rather take 40 months to train my dog than use those methods. I think it happens more often with people who are not training their own dogs, people who are paid to train someone else's dog or trying to quick title a dog they want to stud or sell. I'm guessing you meant pressure as in the pressure that you put on yourself, and the amount of time you put into training, but not pressuring the puppy?
Yes and no. Yes - the good foundation thing, good foundation is key. But that's just the thing. Take a 1-2 year old dog (who wasn't really getting a foundation and thus has to be shipped off for training by someone else) and send it back to Germany and it comes home titled in less than a year....hmmm, that's not really good foundation or fun and games. That's fast training methods that get quick results. The end result may be the same - the titles - but just watch a dog like this train or compete next to a dog that really *did* get a great foundation and some good training and you don't have to be that experienced to see the difference.
I believe in pressure - but does to much pressure mean I sacrifice "quality" in their training and would this pressure be applied to soon at a young age to accomplish my goal mess my pup up?
The pressure I was talking about is more literally, lots of physical pressure in training. Instead of building a good foundation with lots of positive reinforcement, fun prey drive, etc the dog is pressured into certain behaviors and then the reward is the removal of the pressure. Dog learns the faster he bites that sleeve hard the sooner all the trainers will leave him the heck alone. That kind of pressure. Sure it gets results but I'd rather take 40 months to train my dog than use those methods. I think it happens more often with people who are not training their own dogs, people who are paid to train someone else's dog or trying to quick title a dog they want to stud or sell. I'm guessing you meant pressure as in the pressure that you put on yourself, and the amount of time you put into training, but not pressuring the puppy?
by Sheesh on 24 June 2009 - 21:06
I think you misunderstood. I am not saying that most are done in a negative manner. I am just saying it does happen. My comment about that was more directed to Silbersee. I certainly don't want to take anything away from those who have done such a wonderful job with such young dogs. I have MUCH admiration for them and the dogs! :-)
Theresa
by Rik on 25 June 2009 - 22:06
While I an no authority in any area concerning Sch., I did visit Germany and some breeders.
From what I saw and was told (which is second hand of course, so TIFWIW), is that there are training clubs that are easily accessible almost anywhere in Germany. Many of these not only offer excellent helpers, but also some have food available and often a beer for later.
I was also told that some have runs for rent at very reasonable rates. All this can make for a very different situation than what is most commonly available for us in the U.S. It is really not hard to imagine what a serious person could accomplish with all these resources.
There is corruption in any area of life that you care to look at. I do not doubt that titles have been sold. However, there is no way in hell that I believe the Germans invest all this time and money into the GSD infrastructure just to get worthless titles.
Rik
From what I saw and was told (which is second hand of course, so TIFWIW), is that there are training clubs that are easily accessible almost anywhere in Germany. Many of these not only offer excellent helpers, but also some have food available and often a beer for later.
I was also told that some have runs for rent at very reasonable rates. All this can make for a very different situation than what is most commonly available for us in the U.S. It is really not hard to imagine what a serious person could accomplish with all these resources.
There is corruption in any area of life that you care to look at. I do not doubt that titles have been sold. However, there is no way in hell that I believe the Germans invest all this time and money into the GSD infrastructure just to get worthless titles.
Rik
by happyday on 25 June 2009 - 22:06
Deejays owner - did I tell you that you daughters dog is awesome - it is refreshing to see a youngster train... she is doing an awesome job on her pup....
I have seen some of these dogs that come out of Germany at 20 months - some not so good - others - very good... They do have according to Steve 1 and others - all that you say Rik, resources- It would be awesome to have that here in the states - but I don't know about their taxes - etc..... Not sure that I would be willing to have all my paycheck go for that....
I think most Germans work hard on their training - and just from this thread - I think that yes, there are those who ship there dog off for a quick title of a dog - and they get it - and then there are those that - have a pup that is truly great and they accomplish Sch III at a young age -
It takes a exception dog at 20 months to achieve SchIII - one that isn't bought and paid for on title - and an exceptional trainer - ----I don't like the force that I have seen in obtaining that title at 20 months - and it was from a paid trainer -
As far as pressure Liesjers - I agree with you - the pressure that a paid trainer puts on a dog - might be more than the dog owner - would put on them - they have a goal and they are being paid for that goal - what ever the cost.... I am with you - I would love to have a 20month old SchIII...but the cost might not be what I want - my dogs sit in the living room with me - and watch tv - so what if the title is at 3 yrs and not 20months...I just get so caught up in that schutzhund - I got to go to rehab.....lol
IS THERE A SCHUTZHUND REHAB?
I have seen some of these dogs that come out of Germany at 20 months - some not so good - others - very good... They do have according to Steve 1 and others - all that you say Rik, resources- It would be awesome to have that here in the states - but I don't know about their taxes - etc..... Not sure that I would be willing to have all my paycheck go for that....
I think most Germans work hard on their training - and just from this thread - I think that yes, there are those who ship there dog off for a quick title of a dog - and they get it - and then there are those that - have a pup that is truly great and they accomplish Sch III at a young age -
It takes a exception dog at 20 months to achieve SchIII - one that isn't bought and paid for on title - and an exceptional trainer - ----I don't like the force that I have seen in obtaining that title at 20 months - and it was from a paid trainer -
As far as pressure Liesjers - I agree with you - the pressure that a paid trainer puts on a dog - might be more than the dog owner - would put on them - they have a goal and they are being paid for that goal - what ever the cost.... I am with you - I would love to have a 20month old SchIII...but the cost might not be what I want - my dogs sit in the living room with me - and watch tv - so what if the title is at 3 yrs and not 20months...I just get so caught up in that schutzhund - I got to go to rehab.....lol
IS THERE A SCHUTZHUND REHAB?
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