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by ChrissiDrake on 08 December 2010 - 10:12
NO EXCUSES !.
by Member on 08 December 2010 - 11:12
I quite agree and yes I do remember the Dwarf you refer to, the reason for my post was to open up the thread and to try and get the views of others, hopefully some who do not live in the UK. I for one will in the future test any dog i have at Stud and submit the results . My current male at stud has not produced any to date that I am aware of and is nearly 9 years old but we will test him. I have produced one back in 1986 and the lines are in fact well known as you state, in my case through Lasso di val Sole. At the same time a female bred by Rosetown Kennels out of one of my females different breeding to the one I mentioned ( although one line to Lasso) herself a Lasso granddaughter produced a litter with a few Dwarfs when mated to an import male. Maybe you could mention some of the lines you know to be suspect . Any information should help with any progress we hope to make in the future.
John Ward
by hutch on 08 December 2010 - 11:12
I believe that the Dutch VDH will be requiring stud dogs to be tested if they have more than 10 studs - can't remember where I saw that but I do think that is the case.
Perhaps we can ask the GSDL to ask the WUSV their position on PD testing and the publication of results?
Perhaps we could also ask the Breed Council to suggest this as a test required of Accredited Breeders and to include it on their health test database in the same way as hip scores are?
Finally I think that a big influence could be owners of bitches asking the stud dog owners whether the dog is tested and what the results are - the more requests those owners get the more they are likely to do the test and if they get a clear result we are likely to get to know about it!
Shirley
by Abby Normal on 08 December 2010 - 12:12
Dogud shepherd
No one can predict how many carriers exist. We do not yet know the scale of the problem, and if you don't know the scale of the problem, you can't adopt a strategy to address it. Certainly there are 'known' carriers in some of our top showlines, who are still being used at stud. Remembering that clear to carrier will produce roughly 50% clear, I see no reason to lose whole lines, just to be more selective which dogs from those lines are used.
Yes there will be breeders who either decline to test or have carriers that they wont reveal. However, if other breeders do test and especially have clear results, those conspicuous by their absence will be obvious. As Shirley said, if you have a clear dog you are going to want people to know about it. It would just be great, if for once, everyone took this on board and realised it isn’t a witch hunt, there is no shame to have a carrier dog, and the only purpose is to improve the breed.
Member
An interesting point. If my memory serves me well Germany did (do?) not openly acknowledge the existence of dwarfism, despite the little dwarf that went to the Sieger Show for many years, and also despite some very well known German lines being known producers. (Obvious one being Uran vom Wildsteigerland, which in fact my own non-breeding bitch has lines to). That does create a difficult position if we wish to improve the breed. It is a good suggestion for the breed council to liaise with the WUSV in this respect, since working together is the only way we can achieve anything on a global level.
It would be necessary to test every import to the UK, and my guess at how this would work on future imports would be that a buyer would need to arrange with the seller to have the test done before finalising any sale. At least that way we will know that imports are then clear, and this may encourage testing in Europe if a sale rests on a dog being tested. As Shirley said, it also needs owners of bitches need to demand a clear status on a stud (either here or overseas), and I am sure that this also will generate more testing, especially as it impacts on income.
Good to hear you will be testing and listing the result, another stand up breeder.
by Sue B on 08 December 2010 - 12:12
Regards
Sue b
by Sue B on 08 December 2010 - 13:12
Whereas I totally agree with the latter two tests i.e PI and Epilepsy, rather than the former PD & Heamo , as for me developing a DNA test for these (PI & Epi) cant come quick enough, because these effect the health & welfare of the actual animal itself, months or years after it is sold. Whereas the tests for PD & Heamo ONLY effect future generations this particular animal MAY produce. And I emphasise ONLY not in a dismissive way, but by virtue of the fact that these future generations are ONLY going to be produced if these dogs are used at stud!! So surely if this is the case, then the responsibility for these paticular types of tests should lay with the stud owner, not the breeder. Afterall, if an animal has reached the age of maturity and testing to be worthy, healthy and constructionally good enough to be considered being used at stud, then surely the breeder has already done their part well, do you not agree?
Every part of my being told me to stay away from this thread, but the more I could see practical common sense and/or decency was playing no part at all in what was being written, the more my common sense obviously flew out of the window as I found myself commenting here. Please people, be practical. If DNA profiling for the breed was complete, there are thousands of tests we should be doing, but then the best way to avoid producing something that will eventually develop an illness and die, or will potentially pass an illness on (even though it doesnt suffer from it itself) is to never breed at all.
Meant with the best intentions, Best Regards
Sue b
by hutch on 08 December 2010 - 13:12
I have just tested two pups at age 10 weeks. One I hope to keep if everything comes together, the other is going into a show home potentially to be bred from. The new owner and I decided that we would test at this stage so that we can decide what we want to do based on the results of the test - before we have become hugely attached to the pups (hard to do but everyone who breeds to show knows you try to remain a little bit objective in the early stages as there is so much needs to develop in the right way) and before we pay out for the other tests etc if the pups are not going to be bred from.
It is now part of my sales contract that I will not lift a breeding endorsement unless a clear PD result is obtained. In case anyone questions me in future - that does not mean that I will not breed from my carrier bitch - but I have some control over her pups which I do not over pups bred by others.
by Sue B on 08 December 2010 - 14:12
Still cant see the logic of paying out £150 to test a pup, even if you keep pups with intention of being a stud dog, ther is so, so much more that can happen before the dog gets anywhere remotely near the age of becoming a stud dog. To start with there are the normal things to consider such as teeth, ears, etc not to mention hips, elbows neither of which can be done until after 12mths of age. And how the heck can you tell a pup at 8wks old is even going to be remotely good enough constructionally to breed from?
I just dont see the point in taking blood from a young pup and then giving some testing company £150 for a test that, for some other reason, might never have needed, but hey ho each to his own I suppose .
Sue
PS - I did say my commen sense said stay away from this thread. Why or why didnt I listen..lol
by Abby Normal on 08 December 2010 - 15:12
SueB
I was very surprised at what I thought was an unnecessarily aggressive post. This thread, until that point, had I thought been very decent, with a lot of useful opinions and questions put forward.
I really don't know what about my post you considered 'totally out of order' perhaps you would explain.
Meanwhile, Shirley has answered most of your objections very well . Most testing now would be in a transitional phase, whilst the status of most dogs remains unknown.
Obviously, once the status of dogs is known, a breeder will know whether they need to test any future breeding stock from a litter or not. If they have bred clear to clear (which would require testing of bitches as well as stud dogs) there will be no need at all to test, as only clear puppies could be produced.
At the end of the day it is every breeder's choice as to whether they take part and test, or not, unless it is made mandatory. By the time we have a test for EPI and Epilepsy, PD could be a thing of the past if it is tackled now, so additional cost would not even be an issue. It will also be every bitch owner's choice as to whether they choose a clear stud dog or an untested stud dog or even a carrier stud dog to mate with their bitch. I see this as an opportunity for progress, and I am glad to see some people in the breed that I have the greatest respect for, feel the same way.
by noddi on 08 December 2010 - 16:12
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