This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Championl on 24 May 2011 - 04:05
This a great topic, and one of great interest to me. I've always wondered why people don't do what you're doing with Waiko and his progeny more often. The breeder I got my two dogs from (a German) has the same philosophy as you, but both of you are in the minority. What I'm referring to is why so few breeders sell or place their best puppies in show/working homes. Sure, if you breed one or two litters a year and have time to raise several or all of the puppies yourself, then I wouldn't sell my best either. But for those who have 20+ puppies a year and can't keep them all, why not? It seems everyone will sell "show quality" or "show potential" puppies who are maybe the third or so pick, but rarely the top m/f from thier multiple litters a year. I am not a breeder, so I do not know or understand the other side of this concept, and I'm hoping someone will politely enlighten me. As a buyer who has proven myself as a serious working/show home, it makes sense to me; there are too many good dogs, at least as puppies, to keep ALL of them, even in the largest of kennels. Why not let someone else have the chance to show, train, and title? To be part of the progeny group? To take credit for raising these nice dogs? Randy and other breeders, please teach me :)
Another side note, for those who DO place their best puppies in outside homes who are not direct parts of thier kennels, do you sell outright with a contract to work/show the dog, or do you ONLY co-own? Just curious. Great topic, I'm learning tons.
Another side note, for those who DO place their best puppies in outside homes who are not direct parts of thier kennels, do you sell outright with a contract to work/show the dog, or do you ONLY co-own? Just curious. Great topic, I'm learning tons.
by Ruger1 on 24 May 2011 - 04:05
Dog1...
Sounds exciting...: )
Your male is quite hansdome...: )
All the best to you and Waiko....:)
by Dog1 on 24 May 2011 - 12:05
Champion,
I wonder some of the same things myself. This board is full of people that send money overseas and get less than what they could here for half the price or get totally ripped off. What makes them do that when there's so much opportunity here in the US with many kennels? It doesn't make sense but there's 'one born every day' as the saying goes.
This is part of the opportunity that is being created by the changes in out sieger shows! As the breeders need to develop a group, they also need to get their best into show programs. There are many offspring from the best dogs in the US available. The best quality from the best examples. There's no better opportunity anywhere. It's not just me either. Look at the up and coming males, the ones being shown. Find the males that have good females going to them and see what they have to offer.
A side benefit from teaming up is sharing costs. My last show, a regional show, I split the costs with my friends. After the show,,,know what the costs were for the co owner to take a dog there, show it successfully, pay a handler, have a great weekend and go home? $123.00 was the amount to show the dog that won.
Who can afford that? I would think everybody can. If you can't you need to find another hobby. Go it alone and see what it costs. Not to mention if you're new at it, you may not have the chance to win. Team up with a good kennel (there are many out there) and it's your best, most economical path to success.
Ruger 1,
Thanks for your comment too. What we are doing with Waiko is very complex. We have a sable male. One of very few. One of very few that placed very high. This is probably the rarest German Shepherd in existence. We are developing an all sable group for him too. This reduces the source of the group in at least half. We're creating a 50% handicap for ourselves in the process. Except for one Global Haus female that is black and red.
The interesting thing about Waiko is his ability to produce color. The black and red female is our example of the color he can produce. The sable dog was supposed to improve pigment. Very good article about it a few years ago. The only problem was no one could ever get a sable to do it. The black and reds were always washed out. Who wants a washed out black and red dog in the show? Not me or anyone else really. Take a look at Waiko's half sister, SG11 Tamara Schaumbergerland. She's from the same VA sable mother. Her color is not a fault. If it was, she wouldn't be #11 in the world.
So we're disadvantaged promoting a sable, we're reducing the number of progeny available for a group by developing a sable group. It's hard enough to go VA as it is. Why stack the deck against ourselves? It's a hobby, it's a challenge. It's never been done before in the US. It's a challenge.
We're well on our way too. The dogs that are able to be shown are already born or will be born in the next few weeks. So far there are 8 breeders with Waiko litters or Waiko offspring going to the show. We have already gone beyond the one dog, one kennel, group. We have already overcome that challenge. We are as diverse as any progeny group has ever been already.
I'll post some examples later.
I wonder some of the same things myself. This board is full of people that send money overseas and get less than what they could here for half the price or get totally ripped off. What makes them do that when there's so much opportunity here in the US with many kennels? It doesn't make sense but there's 'one born every day' as the saying goes.
This is part of the opportunity that is being created by the changes in out sieger shows! As the breeders need to develop a group, they also need to get their best into show programs. There are many offspring from the best dogs in the US available. The best quality from the best examples. There's no better opportunity anywhere. It's not just me either. Look at the up and coming males, the ones being shown. Find the males that have good females going to them and see what they have to offer.
A side benefit from teaming up is sharing costs. My last show, a regional show, I split the costs with my friends. After the show,,,know what the costs were for the co owner to take a dog there, show it successfully, pay a handler, have a great weekend and go home? $123.00 was the amount to show the dog that won.
Who can afford that? I would think everybody can. If you can't you need to find another hobby. Go it alone and see what it costs. Not to mention if you're new at it, you may not have the chance to win. Team up with a good kennel (there are many out there) and it's your best, most economical path to success.
Ruger 1,
Thanks for your comment too. What we are doing with Waiko is very complex. We have a sable male. One of very few. One of very few that placed very high. This is probably the rarest German Shepherd in existence. We are developing an all sable group for him too. This reduces the source of the group in at least half. We're creating a 50% handicap for ourselves in the process. Except for one Global Haus female that is black and red.
The interesting thing about Waiko is his ability to produce color. The black and red female is our example of the color he can produce. The sable dog was supposed to improve pigment. Very good article about it a few years ago. The only problem was no one could ever get a sable to do it. The black and reds were always washed out. Who wants a washed out black and red dog in the show? Not me or anyone else really. Take a look at Waiko's half sister, SG11 Tamara Schaumbergerland. She's from the same VA sable mother. Her color is not a fault. If it was, she wouldn't be #11 in the world.
So we're disadvantaged promoting a sable, we're reducing the number of progeny available for a group by developing a sable group. It's hard enough to go VA as it is. Why stack the deck against ourselves? It's a hobby, it's a challenge. It's never been done before in the US. It's a challenge.
We're well on our way too. The dogs that are able to be shown are already born or will be born in the next few weeks. So far there are 8 breeders with Waiko litters or Waiko offspring going to the show. We have already gone beyond the one dog, one kennel, group. We have already overcome that challenge. We are as diverse as any progeny group has ever been already.
I'll post some examples later.
by Dog1 on 27 May 2011 - 13:05
Developing the group. What's involved?
Objective:
Assemble a cross section of the best examples of what your male has produced.
Planning:
You need a combination of your females, females you have access to and outside females to breed to your dog. If you have plenty and access to plenty, you can stay home and breed. The correct way (if we use Germany as a model) is to show your dog repeatedly, let it build a reputation, let the other breeders see him. Hopefully he will have a desirable combination of physical features, pedigree and mentality to be popular where breeders bring their females to him.
This is where the breakdown occurs in the US. How many VA males are shown other than the sieger show? Not many. Most stay at home and come out once a year to put on it's best performance. It usually doesn't matter because they are the only ones breeding him anyway.
Statistically even the best males from Germany produce a small percentage of quality specimens. I'm getting 5% to 7% from the statistics published in the URMA books. This means to assemble a group of 10 offspring, you will need about 200 puppies to select from. To make 200 puppies, you're looking at over 20 females to breed to,,,more like 30 as they all will not get pregnant. To get 30 females lined up in a relatively short period of time, (six months before the sieger show, so the offspring will be old enough to show) is a huge undertaking. A large kennel has an advantage. Small kennel has to work.
So we did.....
We had until the middle of April to breed Waiko where his offspring would be old enough to show. This meant to get the best cross section of his offspring, we had to do many things not normally done.
Many thanks to our breeder friends who supported us!
I'll continue with what went into the making of the group, but first, a sample from the previous post about pigment. Here's our Globalhaus female from Waiko.
As you can see, she's not lacking in the color or pigment department.
Objective:
Assemble a cross section of the best examples of what your male has produced.
Planning:
You need a combination of your females, females you have access to and outside females to breed to your dog. If you have plenty and access to plenty, you can stay home and breed. The correct way (if we use Germany as a model) is to show your dog repeatedly, let it build a reputation, let the other breeders see him. Hopefully he will have a desirable combination of physical features, pedigree and mentality to be popular where breeders bring their females to him.
This is where the breakdown occurs in the US. How many VA males are shown other than the sieger show? Not many. Most stay at home and come out once a year to put on it's best performance. It usually doesn't matter because they are the only ones breeding him anyway.
Statistically even the best males from Germany produce a small percentage of quality specimens. I'm getting 5% to 7% from the statistics published in the URMA books. This means to assemble a group of 10 offspring, you will need about 200 puppies to select from. To make 200 puppies, you're looking at over 20 females to breed to,,,more like 30 as they all will not get pregnant. To get 30 females lined up in a relatively short period of time, (six months before the sieger show, so the offspring will be old enough to show) is a huge undertaking. A large kennel has an advantage. Small kennel has to work.
So we did.....
We had until the middle of April to breed Waiko where his offspring would be old enough to show. This meant to get the best cross section of his offspring, we had to do many things not normally done.
Many thanks to our breeder friends who supported us!
I'll continue with what went into the making of the group, but first, a sample from the previous post about pigment. Here's our Globalhaus female from Waiko.
As you can see, she's not lacking in the color or pigment department.
by Agassiz1 on 30 May 2011 - 20:05
Dog 1.
When will we make any decision about whether Waiko and his progeny will appear at the Canadian Sieger Show this year?
Agassiz 1
When will we make any decision about whether Waiko and his progeny will appear at the Canadian Sieger Show this year?
Agassiz 1
by Dog1 on 30 May 2011 - 22:05
The stepping stone strategy. It's worked well before. The Canadian sieger has been a warm up event for the US shows for years. It's a chance to work out the bugs. Performance test was generally more difficult.
Normally a VA dog, VA from any where gets a second look in the ring. Once a dog is awarded VA, other judges don't like to reduce the rating given by another SV judge.
Normally a VA dog, VA from any where gets a second look in the ring. Once a dog is awarded VA, other judges don't like to reduce the rating given by another SV judge.
by autobahn on 31 May 2011 - 00:05
Randy, most of your threads should just be called ''Randy brags again!''. Waiko looks like a nice dog, and good luck with him, but I am sure he is far from something REALLY special, and 'rare' as you call him.
by Dog1 on 31 May 2011 - 01:05
I'm not sure how I'm bragging on this board. Go visit the 'protection phase' thread and let me know what you see there. Looks like a lot of people researching and discussing where the working ability comes from. Not sure where I'm bragging or promoting anything.
This thread? How many people know what's involved to get a dog in the VA group? Some might find it interesting. Follow along as we work towards a VA rating. No smoke and mirrors, just GSD enthusiasts coming together.
Special and rare?
I've got one hundred dollar bill that says you or anyone else can find an equal alive and producing today.
Here's the criteria:
Sable
a1 hips
a1 elbows
ZW below 80
VA rated mother that has produced two top 25 offspring different fathers
Top 25 in the world
Licks your face when he meets you.
Let me know what you come up with.
This thread? How many people know what's involved to get a dog in the VA group? Some might find it interesting. Follow along as we work towards a VA rating. No smoke and mirrors, just GSD enthusiasts coming together.
Special and rare?
I've got one hundred dollar bill that says you or anyone else can find an equal alive and producing today.
Here's the criteria:
Sable
a1 hips
a1 elbows
ZW below 80
VA rated mother that has produced two top 25 offspring different fathers
Top 25 in the world
Licks your face when he meets you.
Let me know what you come up with.
by autobahn on 31 May 2011 - 02:05
You bought a dog that was bred in Germany that has already shown in the German sieger show and you hope to VA him here. Big deal. How many other breeders have done the same thing? When you have money, anything is possible. Do it with a puppy from your own breeding, raise it all the way from puppyhood to VA, then we will be impressed.
by Dog1 on 31 May 2011 - 08:05
I didn't think you could come up with anything.
How many other breeders have done the same thing? If you were paying attention you would know that answer is 'zero'. That's why it's 'special and rare'.
This thread is more about how to make a dog VA. Go back and read from the beginning. It's not just me. It's what anyone will have to do this day and time. The day of the import placing high once it sets foot in the US is pretty much over. It takes progeny.
I'm not the only one. Take a look around and you'll see some young VA's and some high V's that are itching to move up. They're developing groups too. People can be a part of these groups and get tremendous benefit from the association.
Look at all the posts that have been written on this website where people have sent thousands of dollars overseas hoping to get a puppy they can show and compete with,,,only to get something less than what they thought they were getting or ripped off entirely. If half those people had taken the time to see what dogs here were being promoted successfully, they could have had an excellent prospect with assistance from the breeder for less than the money they lost overseas. That's what this thread is about.
Anyone need a list of dogs that are up and coming in the US? PM me.
How many other breeders have done the same thing? If you were paying attention you would know that answer is 'zero'. That's why it's 'special and rare'.
This thread is more about how to make a dog VA. Go back and read from the beginning. It's not just me. It's what anyone will have to do this day and time. The day of the import placing high once it sets foot in the US is pretty much over. It takes progeny.
I'm not the only one. Take a look around and you'll see some young VA's and some high V's that are itching to move up. They're developing groups too. People can be a part of these groups and get tremendous benefit from the association.
Look at all the posts that have been written on this website where people have sent thousands of dollars overseas hoping to get a puppy they can show and compete with,,,only to get something less than what they thought they were getting or ripped off entirely. If half those people had taken the time to see what dogs here were being promoted successfully, they could have had an excellent prospect with assistance from the breeder for less than the money they lost overseas. That's what this thread is about.
Anyone need a list of dogs that are up and coming in the US? PM me.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
