Arras van't Leefdaalhof - Page 5

I think schutzhund "TITLES" ( or Ring Sports...) are a good starting point.  If the dog has a title, then at least you know the dog has what it takes to do all phases. Then, when you've selected the dog you need to see if the dog is a powerful worker with good genetics... Or was the dog just one that was mediocre and finessed through? It's the difference from one person saying my dog COULD do the work, and a person saying my dog DOES the work.

Personally I'm always sceptical of the person who wants to breed their dog and says "my dog could do the work but...."   If "the work" is important enough for them to mention then why aren't they doing it?

Rick

 DBL POST

Jeff
Seems your mouth is running away with you again, What i am saying is that Breeding from countless Dogs without testing of any kind is going to drop this breed down to zero in a very few Years
If you do not test the temperament of anything then you breed a lot of Rubbish,
Look at the Human race a lot of Stupid people are being bred by Stupid people, They are NOT breed worthy subjects i bet in many cases it has gone on for generations in some families they are a bane on society
All these Dogs you Quote then i guess they have never seen a Sports field in there lives well what other work did these dogs do before they produced so and so, Your the know all tell me, but i already know of course they worked in the soprt of Sch and it is not so easy to get a dog to the Worlds as much as you talk so scathingly about it, No more that about 140 dogs a year out of 10' of 1000s, How many have you got to the worlds to represent your country, that is if you participate in the sport and i would guess not the way you talk about it, I must look at your stats to see for my self on the EU site So how do you think a dog is right for breeding tell us all on here without any work or test at all, You mention Javir because i own a daughter of him but i guess she would be to much dog for you to handle she is no pussycat or soff touch or Lady that is why the Guys over here want to get there hands on her but time will tel, with her
OH' and by the way the way you reply to a post it proves you have not been temperament tested
So there fore you would not be a suitable person to reproduce your genes on to another generation
Steve1

heh, i think this thread got a little derailed, but its a good discussion going on here.  ;)
i think it really boils down to what a person wants to get involved in and what they want out of a dog.  trouble is, people can't help forcing a bit of their own opinion on others.  the sporty folks are always going to focus on titles and points and the breed purists are always going to focus on real working ability.  not always, but very often, the sporty dogs cannot perform in real situations and likewise, the real working dogs can't score well in competition.  the bottom line, in my eyes, is in production.  male or female, if they can't reproduce what they are or better, then all is lost at the end of that dog's life.  all the points and tophies in the world are meaningless if the dog cannot produce good working ability or trainability in the case of the sport dogs.  i would hate to think that in 20 or 50 years that our breed has been reduced to nothing but showdogs and sportdogs.  it does my heart good to hear folks talking about using real dogs for breeding.  i have said this before - in other threads - but i think a very good example of what i am trying to say is in the littermates javir and jimbeam.  javir is a wonderful competition dog, performs beautifully and does it with a great attitude.  jimbeam on the other hand, appears to have inherited the true working dog ability.  so, as i said before, it boils down to what a person wants out of the dog; whether you use a dog like javir or opt for a dog like jimbeam.
pjp

ziegenfarm
Okay you mention Two Brothers Javir and Jimbeam
Both are ScH3 Both are V rated, So now tell me with concrete proof where Jimbeam has inherited the Working Ability and Javir has not,
Working abitlity for WHAT job and how has he passed this on to his Off Spring more so than Javir, You made a statement so you must know the real answer
Steve1

Topic's strayed a long way. I think a new thread needs to be made and this one kept on Arras.

Rick

I have a quick question police dogs often have a long line of sch(or other similair type sport titles behind them so do border patrol or military dogs

in these cases they are not high scorring sport titles? just the title was put on to prove the serious dogs bidability and nerve? but the high points are usulaly not there > ?


Then you have wonders like mink, zidane (related to dog in thread title), ufo, Tom vant(in a lot of zcech pedigrees), who seem to have it all very high scorring but also had the seriousness to produce real working dogs as well?  Just my thoughts i am not sure but i was just more seeing if i was correct or not but that is how i saw it.

destiny4u
Yes, of course most Dogs which do police work and other Jobs are bred down as i said from Dogs which have worked in the ScH Sport. There is no question about that no matter what cases some may put on here saying they want a serious working dog BUT at what and what do they grade or base a serious dog to be, They Talk the Talk but do not say what they mean
One said on here that Scores mean nothing I replied they do in the Sport of Schutzund, Yet here we are being called Stupid, What the FUCK is the ScH Sport all about,
It is getting as high a scores as possible in three Phases of work because without the Scores you are an all so ran, I do wonder how some read posts on here
As i said before you Guys in the USA think differently than we do over here in Europe, We do not need PPD dogs in families only firms have these dogs in very small numbers, There is little or no  Herding with such Dogs,
The Police have them of course the services have them But over here the use of these animals is the Sport and most Dogs that make up the above workers come down from these same Bloodlines where else do you think they come from Special bred Dogs solely for other work other than the ScH sport i guess if you think that you are living in Cuckoo Land, But where do people go to buy your Bloody Dogs Europe of course and what are your dogs bred down from ScH worked Dogs in the main, A great many people in the USA value the Czech Lines more, Over here we do not rate them very highly, So it is just as well you Guys do because they would not be able to sell them if the Market in the USA dried up, They would not sell them in Belgium or Germany tbat is certain. And as for people telling me about how Genetics play a Part then you are trying to teach your mother to suck eggs as such i have been studying Genetics for 60 damn Years in Livestock including Dogs and i do my homework very thoroughly when buying Dogs as the breeding of my Dogs prove, and so is my latest Pup Hektor coming in a round 11 days time bred in the purple both sides to Famous Working dogs in the SPORT of ScH and Breeders of Famous Dogs through Generations on both sides of the Breeding Paternal and Maternal. This of course does not ensure or Gurantee that he will turn out to be a great Dog but it does certainly help when you have the foundation of top breeding stock running through his veins
Steve1

Very GOOD  STEVE 1

Thanks for prospective from a man who knows genes and herititary sound judgement.

Keep your head on Steve..we need a kick in the pants almost every day here in USA>>

lol

for a dog to be called sporty it must not only have a sport title but it also has to have a very high score AND lack seriousness and have low defense/aggression right?


Just gets a bit confusing a lot of people say sporty this sport points dog that, but then the pedigree of such dogs is never shown? we see dogs like tom vant, zidane, honza okal, mink and the many other VERY HIGH SCORING dogs but these dogs are sporty at the sametime are very serious tough dogs producing police servvice as well as shutzund dogs so it makes no sense and still stays really confusing


I wanna see a high scoring sporty dog on pedigree board... i have yet to see one of these dogs just one

now i have seen MANy many sporty type dogs in person that are high in prey have LOTS of energy? no defense drive but no on would want one of these dogs not even someone into shutzund lol they are usually outcasts that end up in rescues


sorry i am a novice and the whole sporty/ sport points dog thing always confused me i kept my eyes open for such dogs when buying one but i did not come across many and i did not come accross many

but i agree with a lot of posters i think working ability in real life situations mean everything