GSD breeder for ring sport? - Page 16

They're all sports, and if you can't see the value of all of them then you never will. There's lots of sports type dogs in the Police, doing fine.
The pressure in Ring is environmental, and Prey is the key drive, hence you don't breed for aggression in the GSD! Scary statement.

My Ring opinion is not my own, I'm quoting Flinksy from our seminar, we're picking him up at the airport next Thursday so I'll ask him again.

All sports bring value to the breed, including KNPV but sports they are. In the office next to me the 3 ladies are employed full time to produce statistics on performance and the use of Force. We don't use covert sleeves, have a mixture of donation dogs and Tiekerhook Lines, we are legally banned from using Electric, Pinch and Fur Savers. We don't have assault courses etc, we train on the edge of the Force Cricket ground. Our 36 GSDs have lost ears, eyes, been killed, and fought on and off for hours; the recent protests in London saw Dog Handlers deployed for 23hrs! But they don't have environmental issues and as someone who often escorts the Prisoners to hospital I can confirm the bites are serious; but mostly to the ass and legs yet we only ever use overt arm sleeves.

A good dog is a good dog, good training is good training, and a lot of luck is involved along the way and cometh the hour;
I do think if some of the people on here applied half the standards and values to themselves/families that they do to dogs the world would be a very different place.

A good dog is a good dog, whether breeding or training or life experience draws it out, and many of the best have never really been tested; just compare this to the young soldiers dying every week perhaps if there parents/grandparents hand been soldiers........ life's more complicated than that.



Ronin

Myret, read again, read correct. I said monark was used here, not in germany, my point was just because a dog isn´t known/used in germany but in denmark or sweden it isn´t a bad dog. I see many of the same dog used in germany also in denmark, so I can´t see how germans are breeding dogs with good points but genetically good and somehow in denmark it´s only points that is considered. Just because you don´t like certain dogs does hardly mean you know better than all those breeders and k9-handlers in denmark that trained and breed GSDs for ages. Just the other day I saw a danish breeder that is using a dog that according to him has had two previous owners in germany that couildn´t handle him, and they were not any inexperienced handlers.

Of course people can like different type of dogs, have I said anything different, I said a screaming,whiny sleevesucker isn´t a proof the dog is better in his courage, nerves and being able to concentrate well that is important for a dual purpose PSD just as an example. It´s intressting you mention tiekerhook as is using opal v röderburg as knowing what they do, he seems the opposite of what you like, not very lively and not super fast in his bitework, have had breedings in denmark too;)

Also it´s funny you say I like "normal" sportdogs, when I´m just saying the opposite, again, how can you say a dog is "extreme" because he is very lively and spunned up so his very excited, is this what extrem is? Many of the dogs you mention I see also they are not faster or more impressive in their bitework than for example lexus, in the things you only see on video. I think lexus look nice, he has decent speed and also has a nice dominant way in his work, not only hanging on the sleeve and going thru the routine, that he also is a policedog should fit your criteria of a dog that is tested also outside the sport. 

At last, you said kimbo offspring are average and lexus progeny not much better than a turtle in prey and play, do you think this lexus offspring, a bit over 1 year, have almost no preydrive?
http://www.youtube.com/user/TuRiD100#p/u/11/VlAYJkDdxEo

I can add that I don´t dislike ring or any other sport, just that a title doesn´t say the dog is better. Have seen dogs placing high on the world championship in mondio that also do SCH and I doubt they would place so high on a bigger SCH-competition if looking at the performance in SCH, many dogs that are more faster and explosive in the bitework. Just like I seen mondiodogs also doing SCH with nice scores, or dogs doing swedish protection not so impressive placing top 5 in mondio world championship, even if it was mondio 1, but I guess youi get the idea about points and titles and different sports.

Jeff, did the dog failed in the video because it was not comfortable or could it be he mixed it upp with the other similar exercise where he shouldn´t bite, and was just confused? Anyway, just proof that even ringdogs with good scores under also known conditions are not always super dogs.

again johann

danish or german does not matter they breed for the wrong reason or many do( points )(not every one )
and yes I do know that some danish have used a dog that has had two owners but that certainly they will tell you that this is why they have bred the dog and they have never testet the dog for anything else than on the field only is not many of them  I speak and write with many breeders and if it scores good in schh use it, then the dog might be good,

Im not saying that I know better, but I do know what kind of dog I want .and that is not much of the crap they are breeding here in the north, many of these dog do  not own much prey drive or have any hardness at all, I watched BHP 3 Dm in denmark of all the dog there where a few that was worth looking at the rest nothing special about them, many of the dogs are like toys you have to awaken the dog when you have a toy and then the turtle comes to play with your toys and before he gets it you have hidden it a thousend times a fast real dog if you are not fast enogh with the ball you get bitten not like today the are so slow

take many of these schh dogs and give them som real fight take them to different areas dark rooms,slippery floors,some exstreme work and 90% of them would flunk the test they can only work on a grass field , I have seen this tons of time at work these high score schh when it comes to real bitework an dthey get pressured they are not that dominant anad high drive anymore

again Opal had very few breeding here so I cant explain for every breeder here there are some good breeders here
I dont know Opal very much so cant say anything about the dog but I have faith in what tiekerhook brings in his kennel and as far as I know tiekerhook dogs aint for everybody an they are not those soft dogs that many other breeds as for the social aggresion he wants in his dogs I know he is very comitted to only breed dog that have the genetical strong drives in every contest but there are crap in all kennel nothing is for sure , I hope to that my own female will produce herself or better but I dont know but I do know if I dont like the dog I will proberly buy one in france certainly not here

johann

who says that the dog should not have courage ? never written it the dog should have it all if its possible ,


exstreme is a dog that has almost it all exstreme prey , very lively, high energy,power, not as handler soft as many dogs are today ,due to the policy that they can score well in obedience and then many lacks the hardness and the ability not do feel pressured by corrections , Bart Bellon dog flip the mix he has exstreme prey drive have never seen him bite so that I dont know
Both Lubeck and Inox  and Lary von der staatsmach have much more drive than lexus ever had or will get.


lexus is not an exstreme dog I have meet him severel times both of training and at competions boring dog. not much energy in this dog policedog in Denmark is nothing I consider worth much many of them have a bad bite not very full they lack the power we use to see in the old days softies they cant bite . The only reason that they have not changed to mals is because of the old fashion style this is run in Denmark


but why johann do you think that many police and military and sport people have changed to mal if the gsd is just as good ????

 I believe because the breed has been tested alot more in the breeding process than the gsd they have breed a dog maybe not so stabil in temperement as the gsd but the shit can and will do the work   not breaking down because of some hurdles



not saying that the mal is better jusk asking

have never said that because was not used in other countrys its a bad dog like I meant with Vasco he is not used much in denmark because his lines are french and ring sport and the danish could not care less about RING or KNPV many of those gsd people dont even know the programmes sadly but true

I've spoken to severel breeders and tehy told me if I wanted to breed my female to their male then I could but I could see how he is in different enviroments and if he cold work there
I could take a look at the points on their website if that was not good enough for me then I had to find another studdog



that just proves that points are the reason for breeding not trying to better the breed or find out good traits and bad traits of the genes

Quote: The pressure in Ring is environmental, and Prey is the key drive, hence you don't breed for aggression in the GSD! Scary statement.

Basco's pedigree has as much ring in it as you can get.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JeffOehlsen?feature=mhee#p/u/16/b-UwKR4kn6I

There is no aggression there. None. : ) 

Quote: Jeff, did the dog failed in the video because it was not comfortable or could it be he mixed it upp with the other similar exercise where he shouldn´t bite, and was just confused? Anyway, just proof that even ringdogs with good scores under also known conditions are not always super dogs.

Actually, you would be lucky to get as nice a dog as that. I keep hearing there is no pressure in FR. The dog had a problem in the call off, and the balance in training was off, and so the dog just calls off. I do not see anyone that "builds" dogs in FR. There is always control, and there is always pressure.

Wrap a Sch dog up a few times in the suit so that the suit is biting him back and see how badly he wants to bite. If he does, this is where his training will fail him, as he is not going to out and recall. This is one of the many reasons that I would like to see more Sch people trying ring with a dog that they bred, or someone in their club bred. It is a selfish thing, as I want to see how they do, and see what they are finding to be problems if any a year or two down the line. 

Every sport has their difficulties, that is for sure, and here in the US, we have logistics nightmares to overcome as well. I am not saying that Sch people should just quit and go do ring, just maybe add ring to their club and see how their GSD's do. I am sick of having to import dammit. : )


Quote: My Ring opinion is not my own, I'm quoting Flinksy from our seminar, we're picking him up at the airport next Thursday so I'll ask him again.

Tell Flinks I said that he doesn't get to have an opinion on ring. Not enough experience. Hell, most of us here have way more experience than he does, and he wouldn't be able to train it anyway. : )

A good dog is a good dog......
Now can we move on:-) my feelings eactly....Thanks Ronin!

glbtrttr....you are describing nothing new...obstacles...call offs...dropping sleeves....and to assume someone has never taken bites in a suit...well you know...

johann

I'm very sure that I know alot more about the different lines than many breeders here , bcause many breeders does not know many lines in the gsd or what they bring to the breeding becayse it does not interrest them .

who is the breeder that you're talking about with a dog that has had more owners ?

yes I do know that dogs that are more difficult to control because of their drive often has more drive than the average dog.

about danish police dogs they can track but many of them cant bite very well loose grips lack hardness and power fight drive Have meet alot in my work at night not impressed ,but in denmark almost 98 % of police dogs never bites or has to catch a criminel not like the states where most of the police dogs are traned much in bitework and many police dog handlers keep track on how many they have bitten  they are more hard and specilized and the danish is more versatile, better for nose work