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by steve1 on 27 July 2011 - 12:07
CCole
I do not see any problem with a Bitch being bred once every year so long as it is not back to back, If say you start at 3 years old it will not do that female any harm to have 4 or so litters in her lifetime that is not excessive
If you do not when you have a real class Female and you really need these Class females for breeding then 4 or so litters gives a decent Gene Pool for the future. You may as well say No more Chidren after two or three are born of the Human species
Steve1
I do not see any problem with a Bitch being bred once every year so long as it is not back to back, If say you start at 3 years old it will not do that female any harm to have 4 or so litters in her lifetime that is not excessive
If you do not when you have a real class Female and you really need these Class females for breeding then 4 or so litters gives a decent Gene Pool for the future. You may as well say No more Chidren after two or three are born of the Human species
Steve1
by ALPHAPUP on 27 July 2011 - 14:07
ok .. dogs to some arte just commodities .. they say they love the breed ... well .. two points : 1. actions speak louder than words [ and i'l stop at that !!][ 2. i can tell , being fully qualified in this repect , credentialed and a lifetime worth of work [ just in case others are positioned to debate - what i write is a proven psychological fact !!] : ... how one treatsd ans animal or specifically the GSD is exactly how they will ultimately treat othe humans/people ... ALL people strangers , friends , and most importantly family members !! So ... let one's conscience be it's guide .. [ i fing out much about a person .. by simply .. looking at their dog{s}. ]
just for the record .. i admire peolpe that adopt dogs ..that too states a thousand fold what that person is - that is JMHOp.
just for the record .. i admire peolpe that adopt dogs ..that too states a thousand fold what that person is - that is JMHOp.
by glbtrottr on 27 July 2011 - 14:07
No, I disagree.
The response I provided, though my point may not have been clear, was about a bitch used as a brood bitch who was abused to the point of 46 lbs, and then passing the buck while embezzling. I could provide those fun pictures of the bitch again but sadly given the high profile of all involved, I presume yet again the pictures or thread would be taken down. "Too emotional" for those who wronged the dog...and who wronged us as well.
The bitch would never have puppies again - she was simply too screwed up by her previous world class caretakers. Kinda sad - considering she was a great mom and a good producer.
The problem is endemic. Not only are the bitches abused but the same people who would take advantage of their dogs, do equally as poorly with screwing over humans all while claiming a sterling reputation. It is because of deleting threads such as the one I posted in the back that people get abused - because every time someone pipes up, either mods shut it down or the breeder cries foul too much as "their livelihood" claiming it as a "one time mistake".
Interestingly enough, I don't know if the agent / embezzler is still in jail. I know the breeder of the brood bitch still competes, and the breeder / seller of czech dogs is still around - not a peep in my mailbox or inbox so far. Just too telling.
The response I provided, though my point may not have been clear, was about a bitch used as a brood bitch who was abused to the point of 46 lbs, and then passing the buck while embezzling. I could provide those fun pictures of the bitch again but sadly given the high profile of all involved, I presume yet again the pictures or thread would be taken down. "Too emotional" for those who wronged the dog...and who wronged us as well.
The bitch would never have puppies again - she was simply too screwed up by her previous world class caretakers. Kinda sad - considering she was a great mom and a good producer.
The problem is endemic. Not only are the bitches abused but the same people who would take advantage of their dogs, do equally as poorly with screwing over humans all while claiming a sterling reputation. It is because of deleting threads such as the one I posted in the back that people get abused - because every time someone pipes up, either mods shut it down or the breeder cries foul too much as "their livelihood" claiming it as a "one time mistake".
Interestingly enough, I don't know if the agent / embezzler is still in jail. I know the breeder of the brood bitch still competes, and the breeder / seller of czech dogs is still around - not a peep in my mailbox or inbox so far. Just too telling.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 27 July 2011 - 16:07
Quote: I have to throw in though, that the more you make it known how little you think of your dogs, the more their behavior will match it;-) Call it what you want, but watch a dog bonded to its handler work, and then watch a dog who gives his handler the doggy finger. Is it the dog that's different, or the relationship? Don't need and not looking for an answer to that...just food for thought.
WTF is this crap about ?? I have had dogs give me the finger in trials, has nothing to do with a "bond" at all. I have ignored dogs, and they try harder to do what I want.
I have known too many people that compete at high levels who do not have some crazy strong bond with their dog to believe this crap. Buko gives me the finger in trials, has nothing to do with a "bond". I have had ONE dog in my lifetime that if she was sold would be back in a day. ONE. The rest would do just fine. Buko loves me to death, and I love him back. Has nothing at all to do with the trial field. At home, I cannot move without him going where ever I go. He just likes hanging out with me. However, if I sold him, he would be fine.
I have sold a bunch of dogs, and some do need to bond with a handler, but most of them do not require some huge amount of time to adjust, maybe a few days at most. The rest need a couple of weeks at the most.
Damn that Walt Disney, fouling up everything.
WTF is this crap about ?? I have had dogs give me the finger in trials, has nothing to do with a "bond" at all. I have ignored dogs, and they try harder to do what I want.
I have known too many people that compete at high levels who do not have some crazy strong bond with their dog to believe this crap. Buko gives me the finger in trials, has nothing to do with a "bond". I have had ONE dog in my lifetime that if she was sold would be back in a day. ONE. The rest would do just fine. Buko loves me to death, and I love him back. Has nothing at all to do with the trial field. At home, I cannot move without him going where ever I go. He just likes hanging out with me. However, if I sold him, he would be fine.
I have sold a bunch of dogs, and some do need to bond with a handler, but most of them do not require some huge amount of time to adjust, maybe a few days at most. The rest need a couple of weeks at the most.
Damn that Walt Disney, fouling up everything.
by Ace952 on 27 July 2011 - 16:07
Oh boy......where to begin.....
CC - If your definition of a "good breeder" is a breeder that will only breed a bitch up to 3x in her life, then I want nothing to do with that breeder. 3x means nothing as in finding out how she produces. Sometimes you do a repeat breeding. Soemtimes you use multiple studs to see the influence she has in a breeding. Breeding is a science and takes things to happen multiple times to figure out what you are getting. Now I can understand how you see it b/c you are a hobby breeder. Of course a dog giving birth is stressful to that female. I understand that but I ain't overly sensitive about it either as it is....the circle of life.
Alpha - Sorry but I can't agree with you there. How a person treats a dog is not a sign of how they treat a person. There are people that will treat a dog like a diamond but will then put a child in a cage. Sorry but there is no fact in that statement.
Glbe - Sounds like a personal problem that still doesn't go along the lines of this thread.
CC - If your definition of a "good breeder" is a breeder that will only breed a bitch up to 3x in her life, then I want nothing to do with that breeder. 3x means nothing as in finding out how she produces. Sometimes you do a repeat breeding. Soemtimes you use multiple studs to see the influence she has in a breeding. Breeding is a science and takes things to happen multiple times to figure out what you are getting. Now I can understand how you see it b/c you are a hobby breeder. Of course a dog giving birth is stressful to that female. I understand that but I ain't overly sensitive about it either as it is....the circle of life.
Alpha - Sorry but I can't agree with you there. How a person treats a dog is not a sign of how they treat a person. There are people that will treat a dog like a diamond but will then put a child in a cage. Sorry but there is no fact in that statement.
Glbe - Sounds like a personal problem that still doesn't go along the lines of this thread.
by steve1 on 27 July 2011 - 17:07
No' i quite agree I treat my Dogs better than i treat my fellow man and there is no doubt about that For humans i have little patience, For my Dogs, Animals & Birds all the time they need
Steve1
Steve1
by jamesfountain98 on 27 July 2011 - 18:07
The recovery time of a female is really dependant on the breed, individual animal, each pregnancy, and nutrition and environment. The OP spoke about a dog that was breed repeatedly and then sold at an old age. That along is not enough to say the breeder is at fault of anything.
I hear many of you comparing a dog's reproductive system to a human, which is fair. Not too common now a days, but human females can have children back to back every 1-2 years. It is also fair to compare a dog's reproductive system to pigs, goats, and other animals. These LIVESTOCK are bred every heat cycle. If an animal is under too much stress, their body's will regulate themselves to an extent. Not enough nutriition or excessive breeding will yield you smaller litter sizes, lower litter weights, and a higher mortalitiy rate.
A goat's estrus cycle and gestation lenght is smiliar to that of a dog. a dog is capable of recovering from a litter within 6 months and ready for another litter. Not recommending breeding every heat, but the female's body will regulate itself. Yes, it will have a toll on the female throughout the lifespan of her life, but please let's not act as if it is abuse. My fear is that if people start pulling the abuse flag for pets, it will creap over to the small farming market as well. Not abuse, just different from you
I hear many of you comparing a dog's reproductive system to a human, which is fair. Not too common now a days, but human females can have children back to back every 1-2 years. It is also fair to compare a dog's reproductive system to pigs, goats, and other animals. These LIVESTOCK are bred every heat cycle. If an animal is under too much stress, their body's will regulate themselves to an extent. Not enough nutriition or excessive breeding will yield you smaller litter sizes, lower litter weights, and a higher mortalitiy rate.
A goat's estrus cycle and gestation lenght is smiliar to that of a dog. a dog is capable of recovering from a litter within 6 months and ready for another litter. Not recommending breeding every heat, but the female's body will regulate itself. Yes, it will have a toll on the female throughout the lifespan of her life, but please let's not act as if it is abuse. My fear is that if people start pulling the abuse flag for pets, it will creap over to the small farming market as well. Not abuse, just different from you
by troublelinx on 27 July 2011 - 18:07
Alpha,
In reguards to your "proven psychological fact". Is this a study that you refer to? Are you keeping this generalization in the same context to the study?
I will agree to you in the context of someone who is mentally ill and enjoys torturing animals. I have personally seen this with youth that I have worked with. To keep this in context these people would be similar the furture serial killer type.
These would be the very evil type. But this would not apply to your regular type of person. There is a huge degree of difference here.
outside of this context I would be interested I where you got this "proven psychological fact".
I would also add that one should not believe everything that they read. Just because it is written does not make it true.
In reguards to your "proven psychological fact". Is this a study that you refer to? Are you keeping this generalization in the same context to the study?
I will agree to you in the context of someone who is mentally ill and enjoys torturing animals. I have personally seen this with youth that I have worked with. To keep this in context these people would be similar the furture serial killer type.
These would be the very evil type. But this would not apply to your regular type of person. There is a huge degree of difference here.
outside of this context I would be interested I where you got this "proven psychological fact".
I would also add that one should not believe everything that they read. Just because it is written does not make it true.
by ALPHAPUP on 27 July 2011 - 23:07
trouble .. this is a proven statment that i made.. sorry this i came acrooss it 20 years ago so i do not have references.. but then again .. aside from studies .. one can see this to be true empirically .. also goes on the wavelegnth ; people that are abused .. that is their learning .. so they often become abusers.. what out internal schema is- is !! .., we tend to translate that to much in life and many other things .. if you are pessimistic in outlook for example that pessimism isn't just founded in one aspect but many in one's life. for this is true too : if you are abusive to your dog most .likely one is abusive to his wife additionaslly . . this is also a proven psychological fact .. proven by facts !! ..again i do not have the reference but i can state this is what i was taught & tested to know in an academic institution 20 years ago too !!
by ALPHAPUP on 27 July 2011 - 23:07
ace .. i did nor say what you state // your statement is reversible .. i stated : how one treats a dog[ meaning abusively for correction] you will most certainly treat people in the same fashion . .. i did not say if you treat people good you will treat a dog mean or good. .. you reversed my commentrary .. my words are exact and true . and also consider .. there are exceptions to all rules .. some people are not right in the head , psychotic or havve a disease , schizophrenia .. there arer exceptions to most rules and generalities.
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