Schutzhunds obsession with extreme prey drive. - Page 2

For me it is not just the drive but the threshold.  I like a heathly bit of prey, defense, fight, social aggression...all these things I want and require in my dogs.  However I find I am different than many sport people in that I prefer more of a medium or medium-high threshold.  I want a dog that has correct drives for work, yes, but is not obsessive.  A dog that can actually THINK clearly whether he is on the field, lounging at home, or being challenged by a real "bad guy" in a dark alley.  To me it seems many of the "extreme" prey drive dogs also have a very low threshold.  To me they appear neurotic.  If my dog will dance around and do obedience for anyone just because they have his toy, IMO that is not correct.  I expect my dogs to work for me because *we* have built a working relationship and trust, not because anyone walks up and dangles a ball or tug.  That doesn't mean the dog is *not* ball driven or prey driven, just that the threshold is more appropriate, the dog is thinking, the dog takes into account the context.  I don't want a dog that will jump off a cliff after a ball or a sleeve.

Y'know what I think SV can do with themselves? For all they've done to the breed in order to line the pockets of the elite in their organization? But I've had my share of "flat" dogs who are all together not quite the balance I would favor, either. Give me a dog with strong nerves, stable and confident, a discriminatory sense in assessing a threat, AND extreme prey drive! I see a dog with strong defense as imbalanced if lacking the initiative to assert itself proactively in prey. A responsively slower dog is perhaps unsure of itself or just honestly too slow, and from necessity tends to be defensive.

Thank you Daryl, you have a much better way with words than I do, but you conveyed my feelings on the subject  EXACTLY!!!!

"Give me a dog with strong nerves, stable and confident, a discriminatory sense in assessing a threat, AND extreme prey drive! I see a dog with strong defense as imbalanced if lacking the initiative to assert itself proactively in prey. A responsively slower dog is perhaps unsure of itself or just honestly too slow, and from necessity tends to be defensive."

"What are the Czech dogs lacking that makes breeding to a WG dog a better mix?"

If you think I am going to say anything bad about WG lines, I won't.  If you think I will say anything negative about DDR dogs, I won't.  They bring, each of them, some desirable traits to the table.     

Aristotle spoke about the Golden Mean..the ideal...

That is what is spoken of by myself and sprengkraft.

The dogs I am talking about do not operate out of fear.  They are confident, dominant dogs that walk the walk so they do not have to talk the talk.  They are calm dogs that rarely bark or growl, but they are at an adversaries throat in the blink of an eye.  If and adversary challenges them, they don't back up, don't back down..whatever you bring they bring more.  In a real fight, if they are not called off they would have to be killed to end it.  They are dogs that can be walked in crowds and dogs that some people (morons) won't believe will bite because they are so calm..until they are tested.  They are dogs that have judgement and can sense evil the way a HRD dog can sense death.  They are dogs that only tolerate everyone other than their owner and likely will not take commands from any one else.  They are dogs that are markedly different with children, or handicapped people.  If you are ever lucky enough to have a dog like that, you know it and you treasure it and spend a lifetime trying to replicate it.

Koach..welcome back, hows Cassie?

If you think I am going to say anything bad about WG lines, I won't.  If you think I will say anything negative about DDR dogs, I won't.  They bring, each of them, some desirable traits to the table.


what are the traits they bring...that are so different than the other...I'm not talking about individual dogs:-) I am doing helper work for WG bred dogs...Czech x WG bred dogs...you couldn't tell the difference by looking or seeing them respond to a threat. 2 of the Czech x WG lines bark like machine guns...can't keep them quiet...bark collars always:-) My male doesn't make a sound...at all. I have a hard enough time with barking in the blind:-) But, he hits like a freight train always...fights the helper always...great prey drive...no nonsense type of dog when working

A good working dog will have both drives and be able to work and switch between drives. I would agree that too much prey is not the best however too little prey is just as detrimental. Defense is a drive based in part by fear, and also out of a need of self preservation and is not the most useful when chasing down an enemy for example.

I have never seen why these arguments get as heated as they do considering that I believe the vast majority of people would agree that a solid dog will have good prey, defense, and fight drives. I think a good helper will teach the dog to think in both states of mind and will draw from the one to assist the other. Personally I want my dog to have a high prey drive yes, but I also want my dog to be dead serious when it comes to the real thing. We have German Shepherds and a good one should have no trouble doing both.

Judron,

 I'm just throwing some of my observations out there. A common complaint about the GSD breed as a whole is that it is becoming more and more difficult for police departments to find dogs suitable for street work. One concern that seems to come up often is that many dogs lack the courage or commitment to engage suspects in hostile or stressful situations. Why is this? Could it be the trend in breeding is predominantly geared towards sport and success on the field? As it's been alluded to in other posts, if the prey/defence or defence/prey ratio is one sided then it begins to limit what role a dog will be able to full fill. I think VKGSD sums it up nicely with drives and thresholds. A good GSD dog needs to have enough drive to search for it's reward or track a suspect for long periods of time without losing intensity, it must also have the courage and tenasity to fight with the confidence knowing it's going to win. IMO to achieve this, it requires a balance of both basic drives, solid nerves and good training.

 I think the Czech vs WG lines gets blown out of proportions personally. What I do think is the dogs from former Czechoslovakia were bred and continue to be by many kennels in both countries with service work in mind without the strong influence of sport in their breeding programs and because of this they seem to be the go to lines for those in search of  PSD's or PPD's. But from what I've seen, when the balance of drive is out of whack then it seems the dogs have stronger defence and lack prey drive. Dogs like this with poor nerves are usually a mess and I think this is where the misconception that generally most Czech dogs are nervy. From what I've seen of WG lines generally speaking is they are more prey oriented and sporty. There are kennels with WG lines producing balanced dogs for service work, but again just like the Czech dogs it's seems to be a small gene pool they draw from to produce this type of dog. Could it be the Czech's have a smaller gene pool to draw from so they seek dogs from outside their borders with similar traits to bring fresh blood to their own lines? Do the German's have a more diverse gene pool to draw from so there is no need to look outside their borders or do they avoid Czech dogs because they don't like their qualities like some here say? I couldn't tell you, but I have no doubt someone seeking a solid service dog will find them regardless of origin and it has been said before "a good dog is where you find it".

Yes, that is what I see, generally and not talking weak nerved dogs of either.  I am generalizing here, of course.

DDR serious, more civil, more possessive, lower retrieve, larger in size, more independent thinking

WG higher prey/chase, smaller, faster.

Many who want sporty types are very concerened with every point and need a fast dog that is not one who tends to dirty bite, manahandle the decoy, has no problem with the retrieve, so sometimes they don't like the larger civil, independent dog.

I like a balance.  Of course there are WG lines that have it all and same with DDR..there have been WUSV ch of both.  Grim and Tom come to mind.

I watched B. Flinks at a seminar that slapped a dog across the snout (the owner gave permission)...do that to one of mine and there would not be any hand left.  Hit me, and it is even more on than that. Flank a DDR type and get ready to be bleeding.  

I personally don't really care if the dog is West German...DDR or Czech...But what I do want is a BALANCED Dog....

I personally like a dog to mature into their inate drives...both Prey and Defense...

A dog is an animal and must learn (in the wild) to catch it's own food...therefore Prey is needed to Eat...so they'll learn this first...

...and as they mature...they'll learn how to protect themselves...This is Defense...to defend one's self...

In most dogs...the Balance isn't even...it's always one way or another...even in a litter of pups...Some are higher Prey and some are higher Defense...In life they must learn to even out these drives so they can survive...

As Trainers of the Working Dogs...It's our job to balance these drives and to keep them as balanced as possiible...

I love the West German Shepherds...but I also love the DDR German Shepherds and the Czech German Shepherds...I just think that they're diffenent and therefore bring different abilities to the table...

I also think this is a great and serious discussion...and very good for everyone...

By the way One of the best dogs I've ever had was a DDR dog...But I now train what is considered West German Dogs...

~Bob~