Schutzhunds obsession with extreme prey drive. - Page 4

OGBS - Well said!
Bite v/s Grip?  Semantics.   "Does your dog bite?" (Due respect to Peter Sellers)  The SV introduced "grip" as a PR strategy to counter anti-dog sport fanatics' claims of promoting vicious dogs.

Ascendence of the Maliniois, Czech, East Ger. dog?  How much did economics influence the buyer choice?

For me  i do not go into these terms some of you Guys use even if they be correct.
With me a dog etheir has what you are looking for in a Dog or it does not thats simple.
Some Dogs are weak in some areas and now i am refering to the ScH sport, what we are all looking for is a Dog which is fearless, has solid nerves, a good strong Bark right from the very first bark, and a Dog which listens to its handler whist still being focused on what it is doing.
Lines of Dogs i do not bother about it is the Dog which you have purchased or in most cases the Puppy you have bought they are no so straight forwards but if you do your homework right and be very selective it mostly works out okay.
Then it is how you bring out the best of what you are handling, No one ever says or talks about the handler meaning themselves, Some are better than others for getting more from a Dog than another person.
Take Gina for instance she is all of what is said by you Guys and more, a Power house of a Female with a Bark as stronger as most Males steady consistent never yappy or squeaky, Consistent strong Barks. Her Bite is far more Powerful than any Male or Female in the Club, she has winded and made every Helper who has taken her on grunt and comment there is no holding back she goes straight in like a train every time.
I guess that is why the top Boys over here want to get hold of her. However what i was saying is this The Handler counts a huge amount no one ever mentions this fact when training Dogs.
Now if the great Ronny had Gina i would expect her to go to the highest level and she has the talent to do it but then Ronny is not handling her, that is what i am trying to get across The Dog must be good But then so must the one taking the dog along the way in that area the quality falls down quite a lot with us humans.
Steve1

I have no problem with Czech dogs...just wondering what people are experiencing. I know some very good breeders that breed for police work and use the dogs that work. These are German Shepherd breeders. They use Czech, WG, whatever works. Where the dog comes from is irrelevant:-) Check out CarmsPack shepherds....Carmen Duggan...

 

@ Judron....this is exactly how I feel. I want a good strong dog, with the genetics to keep producing what they are. I don't want a dog lacking courage, or has genetic insecurities, and I don't want a dog with more drive than brains. So I tend to prefer European working lines and and Czech/Slovak working lines. Actually, I think Sweden has done a nice job of maintaining the breed as a good solid working dog over the past 50 years.JMO

Jim, that was a joke.

I wonder thou if extreme preydrive is equall to an extreme lust for work in the dogs? Some say the GSD, as a generalization, over the past 20 years have changed to a more alert and quick dog, with lower thresholds to be able to have a more flashy dog in obedience. In former times the dogs were a bit more stable and calm but this didn´t make them lack a big motor for search and tracking that is a large part of policework. So to a certain extent both the GSD and malinois may have changed due to breeding for certain qualities favoured in sport, and if you focus to much on one thing other traits can be surpressed. If you look at videos on dogs from the 80s and early 90s it seems they are a bit more "balanced" compared to some of the modern dogs, think you also can see this difference if you compare certain lines of GSDs breed for different focus/sports.

But whatever floats your boat, some like a very lively quick dog, others likes the more steady calmer type better, in sport and police there are both types, and as long the dogs are not lacking in other important areas I guess this is just a question of taste. But as our sports once was supposed to reflect the practical work of the workingdogs, I think it´s a loss if people rather breed to a sportdog that isn´t ideal for practical work compared to a dog that may lack some things to make him perfect in sport but is a solid workingdog in real conditions. I guess that´s the worry for some, to many breeds just for sport, don´t know how much of a concern that is thou, maybe it´s much talk over a minor issue.

I think H4J summed it up perfectly. So good I think we should all read it again!

The dogs I am talking about do not operate out of fear.  They are confident, dominant dogs that walk the walk so they do not have to talk the talk.  They are calm dogs that rarely bark or growl, but they are at an adversaries throat in the blink of an eye.  If and adversary challenges them, they don't back up, don't back down..whatever you bring they bring more.  In a real fight, if they are not called off they would have to be killed to end it.  They are dogs that can be walked in crowds and dogs that some people (morons) won't believe will bite because they are so calm..until they are tested.  They are dogs that have judgement and can sense evil the way a HRD dog can sense death.  They are dogs that only tolerate everyone other than their owner and likely will not take commands from any one else.  They are dogs that are markedly different with children, or handicapped people.  If you are ever lucky enough to have a dog like that, you know it and you treasure it and spend a lifetime trying to replicate it.

Chaz, 
I thought you were joking.  Let me know when you are being serious.

Ohh, it's so chilling!
You should read that to all the kids at Halloween, or, late at night around the campfire.

And what about this:
"They are dogs that are markedly different with children, or handicapped people."
 
So, if I want to rob your house or mug you, I am going to send children and handicapped people.
  Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I'm OK with a more defense type dog.  Ideally I like a good deal of both, but not super low thresholds for either in my world.  I am not an LEO and don't need a K-9, so I am OK with a dog that needs actual threat to activate.  I can't think of a situation where I'd need to send my dog after someone that didn't make a threat first.  I like the prey until it becomes the only thing that the dog uses.  Maybe this is a training problem, but I have seen dogs so high in prey and so low in threshold that while someone is making a physical conflict the dog is turning away barking at a sleeve on the ground.  I think I'd puke on myself if my dog behaved like that.  But the dog is titled and performs very well in high level competitions, very good dog for it's purpose of high level competition and high prey and toy drive for searching.  I'm not a breeder and I don't aspire to be a national level competitor so I have the luxury of choosing dogs exactly as I want them with the characteristics I want.  I'm more OK with a dog that brings more defense than prey than a dog that brings only prey.  But I feel like everytime a conversation like this comes up, the use of the word "defense" gets interpreted as *only* defense.  IMO a GSD is not a GSD if there is *no* prey drive in the protection work, but I personally have seen many dogs that to me have (or are using) too much prey drive in their protection work for my taste.  I believe it gives them an advantage in sport because they tend to naturally be faster, strike hard, fast, and full, but the disadvantages I see are lower thresholds in general so there are many control issues, dog chewing on the sleeve, dog overloading too quickly/too easily and just not thinking straight.  If I can't have an ideal balance of prey and defense I would rather not have this high prey/low threshold combination, it is annoying and not very useful to me personally.  I have a young dog that is not being worked in protection right now because he's borderline obsessive prey and wanting to only use that.  Part of it is age, part of it is pedigree.  If he were to continue being trained right now he would get in the habit of only using prey and become the dog I never wanted.  More than prey vs. defense I need a dog that is safe and correctly discerning of threat the way I personally interpret it (ie, can my dad walk into my house without me there to work on plumbing without my dog going after his jugular).  Really I do not want an overabundance of prey OR defense and I do not believe a sound working dog or protection dog has to be "extreme" with either.