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by darylehret on 08 September 2011 - 03:09
An example without focus, wild and unclear could include a dog that would seize a bite on the first nearest moving object, termed "displacement aggression." Such as the handler or innocent bystander. A dog like that can improve with training, but remain a bit of a risk when performing under duress.
by Slamdunc on 08 September 2011 - 04:09
Keith,
Thank you!
Daryl,
You are missing the point of equipment fixation. It is prey drive, the prey is the sleeve. Please do not confuse this point. It is very important to recognize the different motivations in the dog and temperament. If you worked enough dogs you would surely see a dog that barks at the dropped sleeve regardless the pressure the helper puts on the dog. For some dogs it is a comfort zone and a secure item to bite. For some dogs it may be avoidance of the strong pressure from the helper. For other dogs it is the object of the game and their is no aggression to the decoy. The dog will go through fire and any other stress or pressure to get the sleeve. That is equipment fixation and is commonly seen with high prey drive dogs. My Yoschy granddaughter out of very old, excellent working lines is so confident and prey driven that a helper can not unsettle her. An excellent sport dog always scoring in the high 90's in trials, can be worked anywhere, anytime, by anyone. Her bites will always be full. She is so darn confident that absolutely no one is a threat. I have had decoys put some real pressure on her and she will focus on the sleeve. A great sport dog that I trust with anyone in any situation. There is not a mean bone in that dogs body. High drive, excellent tracker and excellent bite work for sport. A lot of that was training, it was exactly what I wanted from a pup.
Equipment fixation is very common and the root of the problem can have many different reasons from training to genetics to nerves. High prey dogs often have this and it is exacerbated through a lot of sleeve training in prey. When I test potential Police K-9 prospects this is one thing that I test for. It will not necessarily rule a dog out, but I can get some good insight into the dog's training and make up from this. We may pass on a high prey, equipment fixated dog because we do not want to spend months correcting this issue if another equal dog is available that is more civil. I do like high high prey dogs for Police work but they must be balanced and have serious aggression.
FWIW,
Jim
Thank you!
Daryl,
You are missing the point of equipment fixation. It is prey drive, the prey is the sleeve. Please do not confuse this point. It is very important to recognize the different motivations in the dog and temperament. If you worked enough dogs you would surely see a dog that barks at the dropped sleeve regardless the pressure the helper puts on the dog. For some dogs it is a comfort zone and a secure item to bite. For some dogs it may be avoidance of the strong pressure from the helper. For other dogs it is the object of the game and their is no aggression to the decoy. The dog will go through fire and any other stress or pressure to get the sleeve. That is equipment fixation and is commonly seen with high prey drive dogs. My Yoschy granddaughter out of very old, excellent working lines is so confident and prey driven that a helper can not unsettle her. An excellent sport dog always scoring in the high 90's in trials, can be worked anywhere, anytime, by anyone. Her bites will always be full. She is so darn confident that absolutely no one is a threat. I have had decoys put some real pressure on her and she will focus on the sleeve. A great sport dog that I trust with anyone in any situation. There is not a mean bone in that dogs body. High drive, excellent tracker and excellent bite work for sport. A lot of that was training, it was exactly what I wanted from a pup.
Equipment fixation is very common and the root of the problem can have many different reasons from training to genetics to nerves. High prey dogs often have this and it is exacerbated through a lot of sleeve training in prey. When I test potential Police K-9 prospects this is one thing that I test for. It will not necessarily rule a dog out, but I can get some good insight into the dog's training and make up from this. We may pass on a high prey, equipment fixated dog because we do not want to spend months correcting this issue if another equal dog is available that is more civil. I do like high high prey dogs for Police work but they must be balanced and have serious aggression.
FWIW,
Jim
by Gustav on 08 September 2011 - 11:09
Slamdunc,
Thank You for explaining this phenomena concisely enough for many to understand. Some people think there is no difference in sport and work "type" dogs. There is!!! Though there are many sport dogs that can convert....there are too many dogs that are exactly as you described for the reasons you describe, and they wash out of LE schools.
Thank You for explaining this phenomena concisely enough for many to understand. Some people think there is no difference in sport and work "type" dogs. There is!!! Though there are many sport dogs that can convert....there are too many dogs that are exactly as you described for the reasons you describe, and they wash out of LE schools.
by VKGSDs on 08 September 2011 - 14:09
Jim, thanks for explaining what I had in mind. Good to know I wasn't way off track. I am having a similar issue with my young dog, high prey drive and not easy for a helper to unsettle so the use of prey drive became too self-rewarding in his bitework thus I haven't worked him in a while and probably won't because that's just not the type of work that I personally want. I could let him work this way and likely he would be a very good sport dog, I'm told by people much better than myself that he is national level potential. I'm not trying to make high prey drive look bad, just saying that in my experience, all the dogs I know of with what I would consider to be extreme prey drive have had these issues of being neurotic for toys, being very equipment oriented. Maybe it issue is not just the high prey and low threshold but a lack of fight and aggression? I'm not sure, I'm rather new to this all. But I still don't see how a dog could be described as having "extreme" prey drive and NOT want to chase an object off a cliff or fixate on prey when being otherwise threatened or agitated. That is why I ask what extreme prey drive looks like without that fixation. And if the dog is not extreme and doesn't do those things, why is that bad to not be extreme prey drive?
by darylehret on 08 September 2011 - 15:09
I completely disagree that equipment fixation is part of prey drive. Sometimes seeing a helper in a sleeve or hearing a whip crack is enough to put a defensive dog on edge, because of the equipment. Barking at an immobile sleeve lying on the ground has zip to do with drive to pursue. What of the dog that will do an intense scramble for the flirt pole, will sprint after a rabbit, but has no interest in toys or objects that do not move? Capturing prey isn't about frantically barking at stationary objects. Different issue, IMO.
by ziegenfarm on 08 September 2011 - 16:09
i have always said and truly believe this:
"there comes a point when drives take the wheel and intelligence takes the back seat." german shepherds have long been known for their intelligence, but no more. you never hear anyone talking about intelligence ---- its all about drives these days. what a pity. solid nerves and intelligence makes a good working dog with problem solving ability. he may not be as flashy on the schh field as a drivey dog, but he is useful 365 days a year.
pjp
"there comes a point when drives take the wheel and intelligence takes the back seat." german shepherds have long been known for their intelligence, but no more. you never hear anyone talking about intelligence ---- its all about drives these days. what a pity. solid nerves and intelligence makes a good working dog with problem solving ability. he may not be as flashy on the schh field as a drivey dog, but he is useful 365 days a year.
pjp
by darylehret on 08 September 2011 - 16:09
A dog with a high level of drive, in either prey or defense, need not lack a clear head, precise self control, or awareness of it's surroundings. Those are qualities that ensure the overall success of the performance, I agree. But some characteristics just conflict in the overall picture when combined, such as for example, high aggression / low threshold / low courage producing fear biting behavior. Behavior is sometimes difficult to quantify, but we must be careful of what we lump together, simply because we "tend" to witness them hand in hand.
by OGBS on 08 September 2011 - 16:09
Ziegenfarm,
Why do you think that the two are at opposite ends?
Why do people think that a good schutzhund dog is incapable of performing in any other working venue? Or, thinking?
Why do you or others believe that a dog in drive is not thinking?
If you have a good dog I find it quite opposite.
I also find that if you are around good trainers and good dog people you will hear many of them talking about dogs thinking. The best complement someone has ever given one of my dogs is, "you can see her thinking".
A good dog in drive with all its senses heightened is a dog that is also thinking.
I think the problem for most people is that good dogs think too fast for the average or worse dog handler.
Slamdunc's dog is a great example of what a dog should be.
He excelled at schutzhund and as a working police k9.
The difference is that Jim and his dog have a venue for both.
How many GSD's get to be anything other than sport dog (any type of sport) and/or a pet?
I would bet that it is less than 1/10 of 1% of all the GSD's living.
Why do you think that the two are at opposite ends?
Why do people think that a good schutzhund dog is incapable of performing in any other working venue? Or, thinking?
Why do you or others believe that a dog in drive is not thinking?
If you have a good dog I find it quite opposite.
I also find that if you are around good trainers and good dog people you will hear many of them talking about dogs thinking. The best complement someone has ever given one of my dogs is, "you can see her thinking".
A good dog in drive with all its senses heightened is a dog that is also thinking.
I think the problem for most people is that good dogs think too fast for the average or worse dog handler.
Slamdunc's dog is a great example of what a dog should be.
He excelled at schutzhund and as a working police k9.
The difference is that Jim and his dog have a venue for both.
How many GSD's get to be anything other than sport dog (any type of sport) and/or a pet?
I would bet that it is less than 1/10 of 1% of all the GSD's living.
by Gustav on 08 September 2011 - 17:09
"Though there are many sport dogs that can convert to work"......how do we get things so twisted??????
by OGBS on 08 September 2011 - 18:09
Gustav,
I don't know exactly the point you are making by repeating what you said, but, I will qoute more of what you wrote to make a point:
"Some people think there is no difference in sport and work "type" dogs. There is!!! Though there are many sport dogs that can convert....there are too many dogs that are exactly as you described for the reasons you describe, and they wash out of LE schools."
Do you think that these dogs that wash out at LE schools come from a sport background or end up in the sport dog world after washing out of LE schools?
These dogs also wash out as sport dogs (I guess you mean Schutzhund) and get sold as pets.
My guess is that these dogs washed out as sport dogs long before they went to be evaluated at the LE schools.
I don't know exactly the point you are making by repeating what you said, but, I will qoute more of what you wrote to make a point:
"Some people think there is no difference in sport and work "type" dogs. There is!!! Though there are many sport dogs that can convert....there are too many dogs that are exactly as you described for the reasons you describe, and they wash out of LE schools."
Do you think that these dogs that wash out at LE schools come from a sport background or end up in the sport dog world after washing out of LE schools?
These dogs also wash out as sport dogs (I guess you mean Schutzhund) and get sold as pets.
My guess is that these dogs washed out as sport dogs long before they went to be evaluated at the LE schools.
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