Schutzhunds obsession with extreme prey drive. - Page 7

The type of dogs that Slamdunc explained with sleeve fixations often from sport backgrounds, many times do washout. I am involved in the process and don't have to guess. If a dog has acquired a Sch 3 title, I would not label it a sport washout.
Either way you didnot understand my post which was in reference to following what was written by Slamdunc....there is a phenomena today of dogs with over the top prey drive that along with certain types of training become these prey monsters that can do well in sport but sometimes can't make the transition to LE work. Not all of them like I said, (I don't deal in absolutes like some do, because nothing is absolute), but these dogs aren't often balanced in drives and they don't do well outside a pattern. Some of it may be training, some may be genetics, but it is occurring more often than the past. There are of course dogs with great drives and great nerve and good courage that are sport dogs, that have no problem with the transition, but if you don't think there are sporty dogs these days, well we just see things differently. I know where many LE dogs come from, I help provide them to LE academies. Some come from sport world, some don't, many are green dogs, and now you have kennels in Europe that start training dogs for LE as puppies, nothing is absolute, but nevertheless there is a sporty dog in existence.

OGBS, I sent you a pm!

Gustav,
Thanks for your answer.
That was what I was looking for, clarification. 
I wasn't being argumentative.

(Sent you a PM back) 

Things can get difficult on a 8-10 hour LE shift with a dog that's overly defensive.  There's only so many times a day a dog can look at things like they are life and death.  A balanced dog doesn't necessarily have to have it's defense button pushed every time he comes out of the car.  A dog with strong prey drive will want to search for hours trying to find it's prey during a drug search which really is the reason most departments even want the dog.  It's all about balance, the Yin and the Yang, the hard and the soft.

IMPO, the high levels of prey-drive along with low levels of defense drive and fight drive are consequences of the industry breeding dogs that can be trained quickly and provide a "good show" without being a real liability because of the focus on "the toy".  Turnover is the key for many.

I would prefer a dog that was lower on prey than on defense and pack drive and had a substantial focus and fight drive even if the dog behaved like a jack-ass towards others.

"I would prefer a dog that was lower on prey than on defense and pack drive and had a substantial focus and fight drive"

Amen!

It seems defense drive often gets a bad rap, or it is being discussed as if having defense drive means too much defense drive.  Just because a dog as *some* defense drive does not mean the dog is in a constant state of "fight or flight".  That would be "extreme defense drive" I suppose, within the context of this thread.  If a dog can have too much defense drive (which I believe it can), then why would extreme prey drive be a good thing?  How does extreme anything contribute to balance?

prey drive is ok but the issue here is we all want a dog to protect us when shit hits the fan i imagine all defense dog might back out of the fight too fast just like jim said?


an all prey drive dog might not see a threat also


balance is key a dog that can do sports AND personal protection is the best dog a dog that is serious  and civil and can do sports. Not extremes


I dont care if a dog has prey drives like other posters said all that matters if a dog has what it tkes to do personal protection or fight a person off when you are in trouble is all that matters. A good is a good dog it will turn on when u want it to in any situation no matter where no matter who and that dog will fight for u. Usually those kinds of dogs seem to have prey drive also u want a dog u  take out in public and go swimming with on the beach do social things not just keep locked in ur backyard caues it is to defensive i call those dogs junkyard dogs.  All i care about is if the dog will turn on right away on its ownon a man that is not holding a stick or equipment. I like to take my dogs swimming on trails out in nature and stuff bikers are always passing me so are joggers and kids. I dont let people pet my dog but they have to pass us so its important my dog ignore them unless they threaten us.

also i dont know what this falls under but i cant stand a dog that is going to chase my pets when they run i am not sure if that has to do with prey drive or just a dogs ability to control its prey drive but i keep other animals i dont like to worry about my dog chasing it. I prefer a dog that will protect my current pets like my current dog will actualy protect my cat from other animals or cats if she gets a chance which means a lot to me.  A lot of animals will try to bother or bully a couple may even try to kill a 10 pound cat but but the fear of god gets put into them when her 85 pound fearless friend comes out. lol


BUT i do know that prey drive doesnt seem to be related to killing things the 2 worst cat killing gsd i have ever met seem to have zero prey drive? both were american backyard bred and just would out of the blue try to bite a cats head off they didnt seem to have prey drive as in the kind like chase things or bite sleeves like the way prey drive is dicussed on here? They didnt chas balls or anything like that. So it kinda cofused me why they did it.  The other cat killing dog was a DDR dog that was all defense and had very little prey and he killed cats like crazy.  Another one  czech dog lot of defense i was told little or no prey but a huge cat killer was a eurosport dog.  SO kinda confused me on the whole what exactly prey drive is.  Still dont understand it fully.

Low prey drive, high defense drive,,,,,nice pet, bad competition dog.  Your obedience is going to be really hard to watch,,,dull, boring, yech.  How's that retrieve looking??  And that send away??  Let me guess, place boards, doe de doe de doe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,platz.

One sometimes hears Sch folks referring to defense as basically a fear reaction.  This may be true for many GSDs, but there is the older classical type of Defense Drive, which is an appropriate guarding response which occurs as a normal part of a good dog's "territorial dominance".  I have seen GSDs and owned some which were extremely territorial with their own space surrounding their home and the personal space surrounding their presence wherever they were.  The defense reaction occurred when someone invaded their space as an incursion to their dominance and control of that space. A good GSD alerts but does not go off on the person who makes an incursion in his territory and then appraises the incusion for degree of threat and rersponds accordingly to maintain dominat control of his space or territory.

Example, my first GSD import was a bitch who patrolled the inside of our home with a vengeance.  When neighbor adults would open our screen door and walk in, she would gently grab their wrist and bring them to us, without hurting them or growling.  If the visitor was a complete stranger she would alert by growling and/or bark, her hair on her back would go up and she would not let them in.  If neighbor kids she knew, no problem, they could come in.  At night she became much more aggressive as if she understood that folks should not be in our yard and this meant something that could be a security threat and a breech to her territorial control.  She and other imported GSDs I have had this natural "territorial dominance", the need to be in control of our home and the personal space surrounding it.  If we took her out on leash, no problem, but she would respond defensively and appropriately to incursions within approxiamately a ten foot circle around us.  When we were in the yard with her, her dominance extended to the fence and she scanned the environment like a hawk and yet remained calm.

This territorial dominance I am referring to is not a fear reaction, it is an instinction drive to be dominant and in complete control nad master of the GSD's space. These GSDs that have this territorial dominance drive in intensity often show great courage and a noticeable lack of fear when a real threat occurs. Stick strikes to the loin by a helper would bring her on even harder as a further reaction to this basic drive.

Many GSD enthusiasts are not aware that at one time before the 1980's, working line competitors in Profung came from the same kennels that produced Showline competitors in Zuchtschau and from the same litters.  The GSD from Busecker Schloss and Haus Beck were well known for having very strong natural territorial dominance with the ability to deliver spontaneous bites when appropriate without any training.  Some of the herding dogs came from the same breeders that produced SL and WL competitors also and had very strong natural territorial dominance drives. It is important to note that this territorial dominance drive is not a reaction (or a fear reaction either) but a normal state of consciousness in a good GSD and part of the dog's vigilant observation of his environement or personal territory. I have had some dog's with extreme territorial dominance and high levels of courage that also had only moderate prey drives and some with high prey drives suggesting these are different genetically based traits. I think high prey drive can be used to help train GSDs to achieve in Sch, but is not necessary for a good home protection dog if the GSD has a strong natural drive for territorial dominance.  The hardest GSD I have ever seen was many years ago. This dog owned by a man I knew took spontaneously took down a handler who "tested"