can untained dogs really protect? - Page 5

  a female pup i sold to a lady ... a v rex vom haus iris psh3 sch3 fh   daughter......at the age of 7mos. went through a screen door and nailed  her ex husband in the butt that had slapped her son he was talking to  on the front porch..absolutely no training.. many of rex's progeny posessed natural protectiveness. another rex daughter i had at 4 months ..we were in a wooded area and 2 teenage boys rounded the corner running fast and came up on us... the pup nailed one in the leg before i could get to her. no training .. .i currently have a 3month male czech n west german.. qino zps ph3 k9..omar zbz zvv3....grim zps zvv3 ...  arko honest ip3...dax nemely zvv3.. harro ad lechrainstadt v bsp v.. ron v haus bernhardt mader bsp 3x.... exhibits that at this age..baddest little dude i have ever bred...no fear...its genetics  when they do it on their own..

I've been blessed to own a dog with no training that did protect me. I purchased a Lord daughter years ago, she was my first SAR dog.
She had lots of obedience training & training geared for SAR, but never any bite work. She was hard as nails, fearless, awesome working dog.
Type of temperament that she would have not even flinch if a bomb went off in the room. We repelled off cliffs, jump out of helicopters, off boats, etc.
No matter the means of transport she would be geared up for the challenge & chance to work.

I had a issue with a stalker that made my life hell for years. Alarm systems & lighting didn't work. The police couldn't seem to catch him
despite multi break -ins & near escapes. The laws were very different back then too. I already knew how to use a gun so purchased a hand gun.
I moved to the side of the state & seem to be safe for the next couple of years. During this time is when I purchased by girl describe above.
Even though I felt safe my personal effects started going missing while at school. So I looked into purchasing a PPD as back up.
The PPD seem to fit the bill & felt safe with him. He was always lunging + aggressively barking if any one came close to the house or car.

One night I going to put the dogs outside. I noticed the gate was open to the fence in the back yard. I left the dogs inside the house behind the storm door while
I went to shut the gate. I was worried about the dogs running into the woods at night. I got to the gate & the back spot light went out. My dogs were going nuts barking.
Suddenly I was pulled out of the fenced in yard & the gate slam shut behind me. Then I was dragged into the woods a short distance.
I could now hear my dogs were outside in the fenced in yard behind the 6ft fence. I won't get into the details of my attempted attacked.
But rember seeing both dogs flying over the fence to my aid. I thought thank God, I know my male will save me & worried my girl would get hurt.
My attacker turned on my dogs & charged at them. My very expensive PPD turn & ran like a bat out of hell. My girl instead met his charge by running at him faster.
She was punch, thrown, kicked & stabbed, but never stop attacking him. She just kept coming back to stand over me. It seem to last forever but really only minutes went by.
They police arrived & was horrified to find I was covered in blood from him & my hero dog. She lived another 12 wonderful years with me.

A very interesting thread.  Ironshepherd and a few others it is apparent that you are new to working dogs. Good luck with your dogs and have fun learning.  

Cphudson,
I'm glad to hear you are ok, that must have been a horrifying experince.  I hope the POS was sent away for a long time.

YES they can, though that doesnt mean that training wont increase the abilities and descrimination.  I currently live with a cattledog who at fifty pounds is one of the best non-trained protection dogs I have met.  Very territorial, extremely protective of his owner, and good discrimination skills.   Since I came into his life we have worked on his obedience and socialization to enhance his responsiveness and ability to descriminate.   My gal bought him as a six week puppy after watching him interact with litermates and human visitors.  At five weeks he left the group to challenge a stranger coming into the living room through the front door.  

Having worked two dual trained police dogs on the street I have seen training change and enhance a dogs skills.  However, my first canine burglay arrest was derived from a thirty pound terrier mix who alerted me to suspicious activity in the alley and street next to my house.   While not protection persay it was sufficient that they didnt come in my yard but rather went down the alley to a neighboors.  Dog score (two) badguys zero.   Some insurnace companies would prefer an alarm dog to a "bite" dog.   (intential sacrasm)   But even then I never worried about someone going into the back yard where the antique cards were.  In fact Bobbie the terrier mix was satnding on the roof of one barking at the burglars.

In another instance I lived with a dobby mix who looked like he was on steroids.   Without training he bounced off a picture window at a new house scaring away two prowlers and there was no doubt in my gal's mind that he would of protected her.   He proved with another stranger who did the wrong thing that he would bite.   A lot depends on breeding and temperament.   Though even a  more passive animal can be trained to exhibit protective mannerisms whether it be a bark on watch or an out an out bite and hold.

I would say that a dog is like any other tool.  If you want a result it takes training to ensure that it will work when you need or want it to, and even more importantly that YOU will be able to control the dog in that type of instance.   A fear bite is something I have experienced and can tell you that is an out of control dog who is more liablity then protector.   Control is as important as protection ability!

cphudson, what an excellent dog!!! That must've been terrible.

I think any good dog should stand up to protect their owner. Hell, our Golden Retriever has saved my half sister from a pair of nasty yipe-yipes who meant buisness. Granted, they were small dogs, but she is the kind of dog who is incredibly friendly and submissive. She'll sit and wait for someone to come up to her, and then she'll flop over on her back, wagging her tail and whimpering. She is the same way with most dogs, big or small. Very submissive.
This is the same dog who, when  my moms loser bf cut his hair and beard off (before his hair had gone halfway down his back and his beard was a length that Santa would be jealous of)... me and mom were out walking her, when he came running out towards us, calling. Jewel went after him, and had she not been on leash (retractable)  he would have gotten bit. As soon as she realized it was just him she was back to her happy self. That should be any dog, in my opinion.

Great topic,
Did not read it all but some good info on the first page.  We had this topic some years ago.  IMO two areas to consider.  One is, will dogs protect without training, the other is how will it protect without training if it does in fact  attempt to protect.

I agree that few dogs will protect without training and none will know how to protect without training.   The latter  is the key.  Any dog can be trained, but that in itself means nothing.  You can teach anyone martial arts and they can earn a black belt, but this does not mean they can defend themselves in times of pressure.  Years ago I came to the ethical belief that it was unfair to teach a dog in PP if the dog did not have it in him to back it up.  You turn away a lot of dogs.
I have a male out of Boban, he has high defense, no fear of man, has a perimeter around him that he will not allow being broken, will not tolerate being starred at and has no problem getting in someones face.  I have done very little protection with him, I only did enough to teach him what to do and how to do it.  No dog will know what to do and how to do it without training.  I have not done situationals with him (surprise attacks etc.)  I do not want to give this dog the idea that it is an expectation for him to protect because he already has so much of this in him.  He has always done this, no need to teach it or unleash a monster.  I do more control work with him then anything.  I have to have as much control over him as I can in public. 

Some dogs need to be turned on, some need to be stopped from living turned on.  It is just in them.  These are the ones that will defend, but without training will not know how to do so. 
 

Genetics sets the stage for behavioral traits including fighting instinct, prey drive, intelligence (and many more), and development (prenatally and postnatally) can bring out any genetic potential for these traits.

It is a well known by old timers that during the years 1950's through the 1970's many of the top large breeding kennels in germany bred both profung and zuchschau GSDs, sometimes with both coming from th same litter. And most of these kennel kept a "gangster dog" to use as stud occasionally to breed back lost fighting instinct.  As some may remember Walter Martin stated such in a well referenced personal interview many years ago. Some of these gangster dogs had great prey drive and some had little. It is important to note that these GSD had raw aggression easily noticed as young puppies. 

They were dominant when eating and showed high levels of "territiorial dominance" early on, meaning they considered themselves boss of their own space, kennel, yard or home if brought inside. Some kept as kennel dogs only were extyremely aggressive and no one could feed them or handle them except those who were around them regularly. Many of these dogs showed anger in their eyes as puppies and seemed ready to go all the time with no training or towel work necessary. Many were also quite hyper when strangers approached.  When loose in a large yard, these dogs would never let anyone in the yard with no training.  With training they could be controlled more effectively, but were still a liability when taking them out and had to be watched and handled closely at all times.  If the owner or handler disrespected this type of dog, they either got smiled at or nipped.  If they pushed they could get bit. Many of these GSDs were known to be ferocious.

Folks might criticize these breeders and say these GSDs should not have been used.  However it is known that they usually produced very courageous offspring
which were more easily handled, with many correct for profung. Yes there were some that were genetically flawed like the 13A line which was banned.  But the dogs I am referring to were a step below these but would definitely take down any stranger who shouldn't enter an area with no hesitation.  They referred to them as "gangster dogs" because they viewed them as "criminals" that were bullies at heart. When these dogs were bred to bitches that were known to produce highly intelligent offspring with good levels of prey drive, one often got amazingly correct GSDs. The usual linebreeding needed to stabilize type often diluted natural aggression and drives, and these dogs quickly corrected for that loss when bred in correctly.

It is true that back in the '60s and 70's a significant number of german and belgian imported SV GSDs carried this rait for "pronounced figfhting ability" and great territorial dominance usually accompanied this.  I saw a number of great GSDs like this and I know they did exist.  I would suppose some still occur occasionally from the remnants of these breeders lines. A true gangster is a great liability for any household and must be carefully managed, but their progeny can be some of the best family GSDs there can be, and many of this will protect their families and turf with no training of any kind. Unless one has seen this type of GSD it is hard to imagine that because so many GSDs are incorrect temperamentwise nowdays in both profung and zuchtschau. Yes, it is good to train a GSD, however lots of sleeve work can create additional liability in a 24/7 famioy pet situation.  Better to have a GSD that is naturally dominant and protective and can reason and think and deliver progressive levels of force based on

Any dog CAN bite... this is a known fact...  but only a stable trained dog will know WHEN to attack, and be save in your ability to call on them for help or call them OFF if they trigger on a precieved threat incorrectly.   I know Ike will protect me even if it meant his life, but if someone was acting strangely I'm not certain that he wouldn't come on alert, and go to protection mode... (he's not allowed off lead out of my yard anyhow, so I remain firmly in control of any situation). 

Preston; you need to be posting on here more often, that was great reply.

We all need to be be clear, a simple animal does not get make decisions on the use of force in the heat of the moment, threat assessments, tactical options, impact of actions. Dogs should only bite when a human commands them too having considered the above; albeit in a fraction of as second.

Last weekend we had a Handler searching some gardens for a a burglar that was disturbed, it was 04:00am, we had the containment on, the Handler had the K9 off lead, what no one knew was coincidentally an old boy who had got up early to go fishing, having nipped out into one of the gardens for a crafty fag, guess what, both dog and old boy were just out of line of sight, old boy gets nailed! Dog made the decision to use force not the handler.

My argument was if one of my team had Tasered the old boy by mistake that would be serious question of judgment and assault; likewise with dogs making there own decisions; the caveat being someone is actually using violence on you then off course the dog would react without command.

Ronin