I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? - Page 5

Just to compare my ASL/GSL female with my WGWL male, my girl is by far the more biddable & intelligent of the 2, she is the healthier of the 2, she has a WAY clearer head...I can put her under pressure & she will remain utterly focused on the task at hand, my male would get all ramped up. And she is sensitive to the situation; not my boy, he is always a bull in a china shop! I could trust Kali to take complete charge of my grandchildren, she would keep them contained in 1 room, with out frightening them, & not allow anyone near them until given the OK; my male would knock them over, scratch them, slobber on them....needless to say, he wasn't the kids choice either! Kali would even walk my granddaughter to the restroom & back....OK-it wasn't Schutzhund, but it was herding, LOL! And protection! Taking care of children is a demanding job for a creature of another species! When we were home renovating she would take charge of the little ones like a pro, kept them away from the dangerous tools & work areas like she knew exactly why they shouldn't be there. She could sense changes in my blood sugars before I felt them, & alerted me....with no training. She would protect me & the family instinctively, & the way she protected was very well thought out. She was not a 'barker' or 'chaser', she would eye up the threat, get as close to them as she could, very quietly--& then would stand up on her back legs until she was at face height, & ROAR at them, showing all her teeth, & then kind of hang there for a minute, watching them react, (which was usually falling over themselves to scram! LOL!) & then fall back to watch them on all fours. As long as they kept retreating, she would just watch, keeping herself between tthe threat & me (or us, or the kids). If they so much as looked back she would stand up & bark again, if not she would come back to us with a very pleased look, like the cat that swallowed the canary. Even at close corners she would get in the bad guys face, but never had the need to bite or pursue....she never met a threat who cared to challenge her. As this was untrained, instinctive behavior, I wish we could have tried schutzhund. The 1 time I took her to a club, we were made fun of before I even got her out of the car, the minute I answered the question, "What lines?" So, that was that. She was & is too inelligent & knowing a creature to subject her to derision for the sake of MY ego!
And I second Smiley & Blitzen.....I love all GSDs....despite the issues, I couldn't imagine having another breed! I urge people to evaluate the individual dog....not pre-judge by the pedigree! jackie harris

Honestly the AML dogs have to be bred back to the German lines for their survival, the lines are now all heavily inbred and they will go genetically extinct if the other lines do not get reintroduced. 


And the German showlines are different from this...how?


If I were to compare the German side of my female's pedigree with the American, I definitely see more line breeding on the German side:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=523413&p=6-generation-pedigree


 

     

Here is a working line, American show, and German show cross:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=697948

I believe in crossing lines to get what I believe to be supurb offspring. I am not a big fan of Am. showlines because of over angulation and temperament/health problems BUT on the rare occasion there is one that is of better quality then why not? We are after all trying to better the breed.

Thank you to everyone for the great discussion and showing me fine examples for this type of cross!!

Sara

The problem with all this crossing is you really do need to understand the  genetics and what is preoptent. 

IOW's just because the two dogs are nice as individuals phenotypically and  you LOVE that dog does not mean the genetics will mix well.   It CAN work to cross out from one line to another (GSL to GWL) but you need to understand where you are when you do this.  Taking in any ASL's as a cross is the same.  You need to know what you are doing. 

You can have a WONDERFUL dog of any lines and that dog is probably still NOT a dog that should be bred. 

Mixing lines can be like mixing paint colors.  If you mix red with yellow.. you get orange.. add a little more yellow and you get bright orange (line breeding on yellow if you would).  Add too much yellow and you get washed out red that is not a very good orange and is certainly not yellow. 

If you take too many colors and mix them all thinking you will get something really great.. you may be surprised that what you get is a muddy grey.....

Not saying don't do it.. because it can work.. certainly can with horses.. Just saying know what you are doing. 

Breed dogs with your HEAD...  not with your emotional attachment to any particular dog or even any particular line. 

Rass, if one were a purist one would argue that, since every GSD alive today goes back the very same foundation dogs, it is not possible to "mix lines". 

Many breeders who are combining ASL x GSL have done their homework and plan their next breeding based on those results.

Of course, as a purest you could say that.  However, my understanding of the lines from the beginning is that there was a split between show and working (in Germany) and we have moved far far from that with line breeding back on each. So the two lines have diverged, much like a fan or veins in a leaf.  At this point both lines are quite different in what they are linebred back on and in structure and temperament.  Within each of those lines there is further splitting within the family. 

American lines are another vein in the leaf or fan.  And they have diverged from the other two lines. 

I am only saying the homework needs to be done (as have you)!  On a public forum this needs to be emphasiszed.. or you will end up with that muddy grey that is not really representative of anything (including the traits of the breed). 

My point is that it is NOT a simple matter of taking a solid Amercan Line German Shepherd and mating that dog with a solid German Line German Shepherd. 

I am glad to hear that many breeders have done their homework.  I am agreeing that is how it needs to be done. 

mirasmom wrote:

"In the beginning of developing the breed, I'm sure they didn't x-ray dogs hips & elbows, they went by the over all strength and structure of the breed and it's endurance, if it became lame it was most likely weeded out of the breed program.

There's nothing like a keen eye and a hands on approach when deciding who to use while developing your own breeding program...."


It's amusing, I have usually found those that do not xray/OFA/a-stamp are the ones that use this "theory" the most.
Or use it to defend breeding a dysplastic dog etc. And this is not directed at you personally mirasmom, its a general statement.

Absolutley a "hands on" approach should be taken when choosing a suitable match for your breeding dog, but only after you have gotten out and really worked that dog, that same dog has passed several minimal health tests etc.

Sorry, but people can yap all they want about "never being lame" etc, but if you actually took that dysplastic dog out and worked it hard, (agility type work) the dog would then break down. Most dogs are kept as pampered pets, so never know anything but the soft ground of their well manicured lawns, or rubber mats in an obedience school etc. Start asking that dog to really work, exercises out of motion, running/turning/jumping several times a week and you may see something different.

The problem with most weak dogs, no matter the lines, is when you couple physical issues with mental stress of training (remember, stress can be good and bad), the dog will show wear and start to breakdown.  This may be something as simple as "too stressed to eat"- I'm sure most in dog fanciers know of dogs that had to be "tubed/stuffed" to be fed..otherwise they would not eat.

This is why it's important to do more with potential breeding animals than just run them around a ring, or get CGC's etc..really work that dog, no matter the lines, and see how the body and mind hold up. If that was more of a concern than types/lines, the breed might be a little healthier overall.

Working can be AKC obedience titles, tracking, agility, herding etc. But it should be the bare minimum, not just "va-fluffy von fluffess schh10" is the grandfather etc.
Otherwise, in my opinion, you are just breeding to produce merchandise, nothing more.
No schutzhund clubs? AKC/UKC etc are everywhere.

I am in complete agreement with Rass & Workingdogz. Well spoken! jackie harris