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by beetree on 05 January 2012 - 14:01
I think one of the best ways of discovering who to trust is to find out how their mistakes are handled. That itself can be a big eye-opener.
I recall too, "Buyer Beware" is often quoted, except it seems to be used as an excuse, not a lesson.
I recall too, "Buyer Beware" is often quoted, except it seems to be used as an excuse, not a lesson.
by Rass on 05 January 2012 - 14:01
Here, breeders charge $1500+ for a pup, they want you to fill out some lengthy questionaire, then sign a 450 page contract, and essentially according to the contract THEY still "own" the dog, does this mean we the consumer are just "renting"? 
Ooops, forgot, some of the larger more commercial breeders, Kraftwerk as an example just require payment in full and a shipping address
They want to sell pups on limited AKC, but charge prime dollar.
We don't breed. We did sparingly in the past years ago, but just because we purchase a puppy with "open" registration doesn't mean we will breed said pup. We just want to own what we pay for, lock stock and barrel, good bad and ugly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!!!
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER buy a dog on co ownership or limited registration or with 'required' breedings in a contract (especially on a puppy that may or may not be breeding worthy!).
If you DO sign a contract for, be sure there are LIQUIDATED DAMAGES for non performance by the BREEDER OR the BUYER.
I believe the ONLY thing on a contract should be health guarantee. You buy the dog. The dog should be COMPLETELY YOURS. If the breeder wants to protect their all important "breeding interest" because they are "protecting their lines" then they should not sell you a dog!!!!!!!!
Don't ask how I know this. Let's just say I am more educated today than I was 18 months ago!!!
Good Luck finding a breeder you can work with. There are dogs produced in the US that are AKC registered that are good dogs out of all German Lines with HOT titles. That is what I like to see!
Ooops, forgot, some of the larger more commercial breeders, Kraftwerk as an example just require payment in full and a shipping address
They want to sell pups on limited AKC, but charge prime dollar.
We don't breed. We did sparingly in the past years ago, but just because we purchase a puppy with "open" registration doesn't mean we will breed said pup. We just want to own what we pay for, lock stock and barrel, good bad and ugly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!!!
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER buy a dog on co ownership or limited registration or with 'required' breedings in a contract (especially on a puppy that may or may not be breeding worthy!).
If you DO sign a contract for, be sure there are LIQUIDATED DAMAGES for non performance by the BREEDER OR the BUYER.
I believe the ONLY thing on a contract should be health guarantee. You buy the dog. The dog should be COMPLETELY YOURS. If the breeder wants to protect their all important "breeding interest" because they are "protecting their lines" then they should not sell you a dog!!!!!!!!
Don't ask how I know this. Let's just say I am more educated today than I was 18 months ago!!!
Good Luck finding a breeder you can work with. There are dogs produced in the US that are AKC registered that are good dogs out of all German Lines with HOT titles. That is what I like to see!
by Blitzen on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
LOL to each his/her own, aaykayy. It's your money.
by workingdogz on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
Blitzen wrote:
"I guess I have a different take on breeders requiring more than a check to seal a deal. I don't object to being asked about my intentions, facilities etc when I inquire about a dog. It sends the message to me that breeder cares about the dog, is careful when planning a breeding and cares where the dog goes. I also feel as if a breeder who tries to qualify a buyer before the sale is more apt to honor a contract."
Oh, please don't assume we only buy from someone who just wants to know how/when we are sending payment. We don't mind answering questions about how the dog will be raised, for what, where the dog will live etc, we just find these 15+ page "questionaires" and "pre-qualifying" silly. Then you move on to the "contract" where if you really read it, you don't ever "own" the dog. Sales contracts demanding return of the dog if you can no longer keep said dog etc?
THAT to me is ludicrous. The breeder then expects the dog returned for free, well then? we should GET the dog for FREE too right? Turnabout is fair play.
And for that very reason, we will rarely "buy American". It is simply less hassle and much easier to find a good breeder, make contact, express our wishes for a quality pup for sport etc, send the money then go to the airport to pick up said pup. No "shuck and jive" involved, just a simple transaction. And yes, it is for a living breathing creature, but at the end of the day, law dictates it is a purchase of a "product".
"I guess I have a different take on breeders requiring more than a check to seal a deal. I don't object to being asked about my intentions, facilities etc when I inquire about a dog. It sends the message to me that breeder cares about the dog, is careful when planning a breeding and cares where the dog goes. I also feel as if a breeder who tries to qualify a buyer before the sale is more apt to honor a contract."
Oh, please don't assume we only buy from someone who just wants to know how/when we are sending payment. We don't mind answering questions about how the dog will be raised, for what, where the dog will live etc, we just find these 15+ page "questionaires" and "pre-qualifying" silly. Then you move on to the "contract" where if you really read it, you don't ever "own" the dog. Sales contracts demanding return of the dog if you can no longer keep said dog etc?
THAT to me is ludicrous. The breeder then expects the dog returned for free, well then? we should GET the dog for FREE too right? Turnabout is fair play.
And for that very reason, we will rarely "buy American". It is simply less hassle and much easier to find a good breeder, make contact, express our wishes for a quality pup for sport etc, send the money then go to the airport to pick up said pup. No "shuck and jive" involved, just a simple transaction. And yes, it is for a living breathing creature, but at the end of the day, law dictates it is a purchase of a "product".
by beetree on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
I'm so with you about those "renting" contracts. Pure ego BS.
by aaykay on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
There are even some situations, where you pay top dollar for the puppy and they REQUIRE you to neuter/spay the dog once it attains maturity. It is not upto you to decide on that, but a mandate that is built into the purchase contract, supposedly to take care of the "exploding pet population".
I have had a couple of females in the past that I never bred at all.....but were never spayed. Same with my males who were always left intact. I NEVER spay/neuter my dogs and NEVER had an "accident" either. If they require one to spay/neuter the dog on maturity (whether the owner wants to do it or not), then they can keep the dog, as far as I am concerned. Once I pay the money, I want free and clear ownership.
I have had a couple of females in the past that I never bred at all.....but were never spayed. Same with my males who were always left intact. I NEVER spay/neuter my dogs and NEVER had an "accident" either. If they require one to spay/neuter the dog on maturity (whether the owner wants to do it or not), then they can keep the dog, as far as I am concerned. Once I pay the money, I want free and clear ownership.
by Blitzen on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
I actually like it when I buy a dog from a breeder who asks that the dog is returned in the event I can no longer keep it. I'm not ready to cash in my chips yet, but I'm not a kid anymore and you just never know when an unexpected situation arises making it impossible for me to keep my dog. If gives me comfort to know my dogs will have a home if I kick the bucket.
Most breed clubs in the US are now strongly suggesting that their members provide written contracts that include taking back the dog. I believe one is the GSDCA. Personally, I have had dogs returned to me for what I considered absolutely stupid reasons....dog opens the window and climbs out on the roof.....dog crosses a 4 lane highway every chance he gets....I put the dog in a corral with horses, she got her leg broken, now it's shorter than the other one so I don't want her anymore. I hate to think what would have happened to those dogs had I not taken them back. The only dog I couldn't take back the very second the owner want me to ended up in a NY puppymill. If I ever breed another litter, my contract will state that I get the first right of refusal should the buyer not be able to keep the dog. If I can place the dog, there will be a refund less a per diem of a few dollars to cover expenses. If I keep the dog, no refund.
I do agree that some of the puppy applications I have seen are over the top and I would never accept most of the terms. However most I've seen are reasonable and I'd have no problem agreeing to the terms. Someone said that some Europeans do not like to sell dogs to America because buyers here pass their dogs around too much. Essentially, I think that's true, and I'd rather try to keep a little control over the dogs I breed than not. No matter what the contract says, it's probably not going to hold up in court. Ergo, I consider a contract a good faith indication that the breeder is doing the best he can and standing by the sale more so that I consider it a legal, binding document.
Most breed clubs in the US are now strongly suggesting that their members provide written contracts that include taking back the dog. I believe one is the GSDCA. Personally, I have had dogs returned to me for what I considered absolutely stupid reasons....dog opens the window and climbs out on the roof.....dog crosses a 4 lane highway every chance he gets....I put the dog in a corral with horses, she got her leg broken, now it's shorter than the other one so I don't want her anymore. I hate to think what would have happened to those dogs had I not taken them back. The only dog I couldn't take back the very second the owner want me to ended up in a NY puppymill. If I ever breed another litter, my contract will state that I get the first right of refusal should the buyer not be able to keep the dog. If I can place the dog, there will be a refund less a per diem of a few dollars to cover expenses. If I keep the dog, no refund.
I do agree that some of the puppy applications I have seen are over the top and I would never accept most of the terms. However most I've seen are reasonable and I'd have no problem agreeing to the terms. Someone said that some Europeans do not like to sell dogs to America because buyers here pass their dogs around too much. Essentially, I think that's true, and I'd rather try to keep a little control over the dogs I breed than not. No matter what the contract says, it's probably not going to hold up in court. Ergo, I consider a contract a good faith indication that the breeder is doing the best he can and standing by the sale more so that I consider it a legal, binding document.
by Blitzen on 05 January 2012 - 16:01
What's wrong with selling a dog with a visible fault such as a severe overbite on a neutering contract? Or asking that a dog be neutered prior to the seller's making restitution?
by Blitzen on 05 January 2012 - 16:01
aaykayy, I find it ironic that you would buy a dog from a broker with a bad reputation but not from a breeder who requires that pet quality dogs are neutered so they don't reproduce.
by workingdogz on 05 January 2012 - 16:01
Blitzen
Asking for right of first refusal and demanding it are two different things
And I have no problem with a dog being required to be altered if it has a maor fault,
but perhaps the breeder should do that first to ensure there is never an "oops" litter.
And no, not a fan of early spay-neuter, but, given the options..
Asking for right of first refusal and demanding it are two different things
And I have no problem with a dog being required to be altered if it has a maor fault,
but perhaps the breeder should do that first to ensure there is never an "oops" litter.
And no, not a fan of early spay-neuter, but, given the options..
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