German Shepherd/Wolf-Shepherd breeding - Page 4

Bk2PUR
The puppies will only ever be as "good" as the mother.
While I am sure she is a wonderful companion to you,
she does not sound like a breeding dog.

"I know this is a topic of much controversy. But what is it that determines what makes a dog great"


well, that is debatable, but until something better comes along, I'm going to accept the standards set by the founder of the breed and the organization he also founded for the beed.

 going to
Rik

RIK:

Let's start here. I'm still digging up the original source.

Pedigree info on the FIRST registered German Shepherd dog.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1183

Narative description:

Origins

In Europe during the 1800s, attempts were being made to standardise breeds.^[5] The dogs were bred to preserve traits that assisted in their job of herding sheep and protecting flocks from predators. In Germany this was practiced within local communities, where shepherds selected and bred dogs that they believed had traits necessary for herding sheep, such as intelligence, speed, strength, and keen senses of smell. The results were dogs that were able to perform admirably in their task, but that differed significantly, both in appearance and ability, from one locality to another.^[5]

To combat these differences, the Phylax Society was formed in 1891 with the intention of creating standardised dog breeds in Germany. The society disbanded after only three years due to ongoing internal conflicts regarding the traits in dogs that the society should promote; some members believed dogs should be bred solely for working purposes, while others believed dogs should be bred also for appearance.^[6] While unsuccessful in their goal, the Phylax Society had inspired people to pursue standardising dog breeds independently.

German Shepherd Dogs. Female (left), Male (right).

Max von Stephanitz, an ex-cavalry captain and former student of the Berlin Veterinary College, was one such ex-member. He believed strongly that dogs should be bred for working.

A German night-watchman from 1950 with his dog

In 1899, Von Stephanitz was attending a dog show when he was shown a dog named Hektor Linksrhein. Hektor was the product of few generations of selective breeding and completely fulfilled what Von Stephanitz believed a working dog should be. He was pleased with the strength of the dog and was so taken by the animal's intelligence and loyalty, that he purchased it immediately.^[5] After purchasing the dog he changed its name to Horand von Grafrath and Von Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd Dog).^[5] Horand was declared to be the first German Shepherd Dog and was the first dog added to the society's breed register.

Horand became the centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs belonging to other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was Hektor von Schwaben.^[7] Hektor was inbred with another of Horand's offspring and produced Beowulf, who later fathered a total of eighty-four pups, mostly through being inbred with Hektor's other offspring. In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.^[8] Beowulf's progeny also were inbred and it is from these pups that all German Shepherds draw a genetic link. It is believed the society accomplished its goal mostly due to Von Stephanitz's strong, uncompromising leadership and he is therefore credited with being the creator of the German Shepherd Dog.^[9]

That's a great place to start. Which of those dogs exhibited avoidance/cowardice issues (domesticated dog), like the one you want to breed, or avoidance (wolf) issues. Which were white. You want to go back to v.S., why were white dogs excluded from the GSD.

Why don't you just go ahead and make your pitch to sell your hybrids here. You are not the novice you came here pretending to be. Just take your dogs out and have them certified by the S.V., the organization founded by v.S. for the continuance of the breed he founded (if you want to quote v.S). You don't have to put up with crap from folks like me. 

If you have a GSD, proof it. The standards are set in print. Title it, breed survey it, it it passes, the world of the GSD can't deny it. 

jmo,
Rik


 

RIK.

I wouldn't characterize myself as a novice. I dont have the time, nor do I have the experience, to raise myself to that level. I only know what I know. And the information I have I've obtained through research and, as shocking as it may seem, by asking people with experience. I am a firm believer in NOT re-inventing the wheel. And the life, or lives in terms of the potential outcome of breeding in ignorance, is too costly to do without making the appropriate contact, getting all the information and knowing before doing. As I've already stated, I am familiar (from my research) with the trials and their significance with respect to the breed "standard". This I researched before I purchased my girl. And if I decided to breed my her, as my intent as previously stated over and over is to further the best qualities of the breed, I wouldn't do so without getting her through at least some stages of the trials. And that would be my intent with her off spring; select those with the best traits to train, show and breed. That plan would obviously be modified if I bred her with a wolf-shepherd hybrid. I don't think I'd be permitted to show a wolf-shepherd hybrid.

Anyways. I tried to make it as clear as possible in my original posting that I am interested in information. The reason being, I am a dog lover, german shepherds in particular, and have been thinking about breeding QUALITY (healthy, well mannered, etc...) German Shepherds. There are few dogs like the German Shepherd. One thing my research showed me is that, because of the populiarity of german shepherd dogs, people are breeding them without knowing what they are doing and destroying everything that makes the dogs great. Even worse, they are creating unwanted, unhealthy animals and that's no better than torture. Reading that wolves were introduced into the blood line at some point early on, I wondered about the feasability of re-introduction; re-invigorate the blood line so to speak.  And as I told Heiko1, German Shepherd, Wolf-Shepherd hybrid, or nothing.

I appreciate your input. It has been insightful.

Best of luck.

p.s. My posting with the citations wasn't meant to seem spiteful. You asked, I answered. I hope it wasn't misunderstood.

Hyenas are more closely related to badgers and weasels not at all to dogs. Wolves cross better with husky type dogs than GSD's. Temperament is less spooky and trainability is greater with husky breeds. They tend to blend with the wolf rather than conflict as does the GSD and wolf. But there is no need to cross any dog with the wolf, generally the lives of the offspring are short and miserable.

Boy did I get an education...    " Reading that wolves were introduced into the blood line at some point early on, I wondered about the feasability of re-introduction; re-invigorate the blood line so to speak. " was all she had to say... and ask for opinions... That would have kept this from being so personal about her dog ... but I really learned that standards are so important and I now see a bit more of why.  

There are so many junk shepherds as someone called them... but I rescue those in shelters, rescues, wherever one is in need and keep it and love it and train it.   My goal is to allow them to be the best they can be - I don't do competitions, just enjoy them at home.      

The idea of wolf-hybred with Shepherd is appalling to me for reasons stated earlier, but people don't want to hear it.     It's kind of like people who have children just to "see what they will get" but fail to realize they are now responsible for the offspring.   That's where I do the cleanup work... me and thousands who pick up from shelters because that cute GSD puppy didn't act right now at a year old and they are scary.

 Good Lord... there are too many now...   I guess I'm trying to figure out why she wants to breed - for money or truely to "improve the GSD" or to simply see what she would get  ... this doesn't make sense in so many ways.   Can't people just be happy and enjoy their beautiful animals ?  or go rescue one if you need another... this is sad.

YOU MUST BE MAD IF YOU DO THIS ANY ONE WHO DOES SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BREED,THE GERMAN SHEPHERD IS A GREAT BREED OF DOG WE DO NOT NEED ANY CROSS BREEDS IN IT PLEASE DONT DO IT

Wolf-hybrids sound very romantic until you actually meet one. I know  a husky/wolf hybrid and she is a wolf in a pink leather collar. Period. I don't have an ego so I will clearly state that the animal scares the sh*t out of me. In my opinion, the person who owns her has the only lifestyle that is suitable to owning a wolf hybrid- living as an itinerant tree planter and doing other odd jobs in very, very remote wilderness locations in the Canadian north. Take the time to talk to several wolf hybrid owners and see just how difficult it is to own one.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't breed my German Shepherd without the proper veterinary certifications and testing.
I guess my question is will you require the same tests to be done on the wolf/wolf hybrid you use for breeding?  Not to many wolves or hybrids out there with OFA ratings........

Please dont even consider this type of breeding.  Many moons ago I worked in a animal shelter and all the hybrids were put to sleep as soon as they came in.  The manager who had been there many years stated that the German Shepherd/wolf combos were the most fearful of all the crosses, resulting in many doccumented bite cases.  These poor hybrids were acting on their instincts and suffered through out most of their short lives because of it.  Many/most shyed away from human contact and were not the loveable family companion their hopeful owners thought they would be.

Northwinds