German Shepherd/Wolf-Shepherd breeding - Page 5

Bk2PUR,
 It seems to me you are just interested in a Shepherd/wolf cross, only because the wolf was introduced in the beginning stages of the breeds development. As someone already stated, no need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, you would not be re-invigorating, you would re-inventing,
the German Shepherd Dog has already been developed.

  I just don't think a person can recreate the past, like someone else stated, it sounds romantic,
but all I can envision are unwanted pets at the pound.

   You would need a lot of support from people to help you obtain your new canine bloodline, and from what I'm reading on this post in particular...  

Where would your support for a Shepherd/Wolf cross come from?

     

I knew a couple who had two wolf-hybrids. THey were okay with their owners, but they couldn't leave them with anyone. The wolf hybrids controlled their owners' lives for 12 years. THe couple couldn't travel together at all and they never had anyone over to their house. The "dogs" immediately killed anything that got into their yard and according to the owners they had killed a number of neighborhood dogs (what I can't understand is how they got in the yard). They were extremely dangerous animals and would also attack humans if given the opportunity. THe "dogs" have sinced passed away and the owners said they would never get another wolf-hybrid. THey had no idea what they were getting into when they got them. THey now have a Malamute.

Bk2PUR, the wolf is already pure and if people with romantic ideas leave them alone they can remain pure and happy in the wild. The GSD, while taking different directions according fanciers' delights, can still be found as the breed founder had envisioned them and there are many dedicated people who are working diligently to maintain that type. Actually, I don't see where either of these canids need to be brought "BACK TO PURE". They already are. Prevent the misery of the resulting animals of such breeding you are contemplating and restrain your urges. Just get a good Jack London book and enjoy.

Ok, I know you aren't going to get good responses on here. I am no expert, but I see some problems here. Most people on here, like myself, believe in only breeding to better the breed, that is within breed standard, strong dogs who have accomplished feats like Schutzhund, Agility, Tracking, etc. Within the prelude as you call it, there seems to be a couple issues with the female that makes me want to avoid breeding her.

First, she's oversize for the AKC breed standard. Females should be between 22 and 24", and taken from the size of her parents, she is probably over this.

Second, the shy tendencies can be genetic. These are not tendencies that people want to pass on with the breed. The breed should be fearless, not apprehensive, and should not be overly outgoing but should not at all be shy.

Third, you say that she lacks focus. This, too, could be genetic. People want a GSD who has the drive and focus to do the job asked of them. This may could be fixed with some intense training, but I'm a little weary of it.  

Let's address the issue of breeding. Besides these traits that should be avoided being passed on, you say that you want to breed her intelligently. Before even thinking about breeding your female, I would have her tested for DM and other genetic diseases, as well as have her hips and elbows certified. If these aren't excellent results, then breeding should be avoided anyway. You say you want to breed her intelligently, but are avoiding breeding to standard. You say you want to breed her only to a wolf/wolf-hybrid or to an oversized GSD. None of these options are intelligent breeding. Oversized GSDs tend to have more issues on their joints, because they carry that much more weight. While I'm not bashing wolf-hybrids, you should definately look into them before you even think of them as a good addition to the GSD. Wolves are shy, emotional, aggressive, and unpredictable. While adding these traits to an already emotional breed, it's a recipe for disaster. Read up on the history of the GSD. When the Germans tried to breed in wolves to the breed again in the early 40s and 50s (not positive on te decade, but it's somewhere around there :)), the results were too aggressive and unpredictable to be used and were put down.

Let me just say that while you view your baby girl as the best dog in the world, let's face it, we're all guilty of it, it would not be best for the breed to reproduce her due to some of these traits and tendencies that I've previously discussed. If these and everyone else's comments aren't enough, please before you do anything, go up to your local shelter and just walk through the dogs. I guarentee you will find at least 2 GSD mixes or some purebreds. If this still doesn't move you against it, make sure that you would have a home for every single possible puppy. There are too many GSD and GSD mixes put down every year.

Thanks
Madison

I will say that my mother had a Timberwolf while I was growing up, and he was fantastic with us, but was extremely unpredictable with others. He also had that inherint prey drive and would kill our neighbor's chickens. My mother managed to get him to stop killing the chickens, but we ended up having to put him down once he attacked and killed a neighbor's cow. It killed us because he was such a great dog to us and was 4 and healthy, but it was that unpredictability that the dog possessed that overruled our love for it.

I will reiterate, wolf/dog offspring generally live a short ,miserable life. A "home" for the puppies from such breeding probably would last less than a year. Then it is to the "SHELTER", that isn't.

I have never understood the why people want to breed domestic dogs with wild wolves. I am sure there a are a handful of great wolf hybrids out there BUT, the majority of them are unpredictable and unsuited for life as a pet with the average dog owner. As a breeder you need to be confident in what type of pups your dog is going to produce. Do you know where the wolf/grandfather came from? Does this wolf have a genetic condition that keeps him from being released back into the wild? Do you know the genetic profile of the GSD/wolf you want to breed her to? Are you going to offer health guarantees with these puppies? When people have problems training them (people have problems training pure bred GSDs) are you going to be the one they can come to for training advice to keep these puppies you brought into the world out of the shelter or from being put down? Where are you going to find RESPONSIBLE homes for these puppies? People who know what they are getting themselves into? Are you prepared to keep puppies that are hard to handle until a suitable home comes along? 

I think these are some questions (among the others already discussed on this thread) that you really need to think about and answer for yourself before you start breeding any dog let alone a dog who is a wolf hybrid. 

I don't really see them as being unpredictable at all. They're quite predicatable, really. They're WOLVES. They act predictably WILD. 

There’s a Chris Rock joke about the Siegfried & Roy tiger attack: “That tiger didn’t go crazy, that tiger went tiger.” 

Let wolves be wolves. Out in the wild where they belong. 

This is my final post on this topic.

First. My German Shepherd. She is the exact physical measurements established by the breed standard @ 70 lbs and 23 inches. As my vet put it, she is exactly the size she needs to be. The focus she lacks is difficulty breaking her from a task when she's on it, not difficulty staying on task. Her shyness, as I call it, is demonstrated by her outward behavior (barking), with strangers she reads as threatening. And as I said, she CLEARLY reads ALL people. She is never viscious but not afraid to tell you she's there and keeping a watchful protective eye.

Some thoughts on breeding. Research is worth it's weight in gold. German Shepherds ARE a mixed breed. That's how the German Shepherd was created. It didn't fall from the sky as the amazing animal it is today. Max von Stephanitz, recognized as the creator of the breed, chose dogs for the specific qualities he sought in the breed he was creating; intended to be a courgeous, powerful, intelligent, all purpose working dog. He "purified" his cross breed through inbreeding...almost to excess...until he had his perfect dog; A practice I doubt would be condoned today. He also only bred the dogs that displayed the best of the characteristics he sought to continue. This begs the question....what happened to other 5 to 10 pups per litter, he found not worthy. I fear to imagine; society wasn't as politically correct then as it is today. And dogs were less companion more tool. Once he had his perfect dog, it was years before it was permitted to be registered as a pure breed. This is still the practice today in the American Kennel Club. Dogs can be registered under the miscellaneous category. With proven popularity of the breed, the dog will be considered for registration as a pure breed and eligible upon approval. And yes, 4 wolves were introduced into the blood line, a historical fact.

Although I appreciate everyone's responses, some more than others, I wish some would have read through the previous posts before replying. There were a lot of redundant posts. This was an exploratory posting, seeking information only. I've gained a lot of insight from the postings, that I am thankful for and will put to good use. One of the unfortunate and disturbing things I have learned though, is how many people claim to be breed enthusiasts but know little to nothing about the breed. They know a lot about currrent club and association standards, but nothing about where the dog came from, it's origins, it's history, its rise to fame and near fall to extinction. And yes, the German Shepherd almost disappeared.

And no, this was not about a way to make money. I have a job and unfortunately one where I see first hand what happens with pets (cats and dogs alike) that are mistreated, abandoned, unloved and unwanted.  And the only romantic ideas I have behind breeding is the perfect GSD, as von Stephanitz would have imagined.

In closing, I have a hypothetical. Ask yourselves this question, if there was no German Shepherd breed, and I was Max Von Stephanitz thinking about creating the perfect working dog breed, the German Shepherd and I posted on this forum to gain insight on how to do it, what would you have said? If you say you would have said something different than what you've told me already, you are a liar or a hypocrite. Take it a step further, what if Von Stephanitz heeded the advice you've given me. In that case this posting, this forum, the very breed we are talking about wouldn't exist.

Enough said. Take care and good day to you all.

It's not so much redundancy as a way to show unanimous support for your NOT doing that breeding. Just get any hillbilly nickel magazine and see how many of those poor, unfortunate crosses are in them and think about where yours will end up, because believe me, no EDUCATED dog person is going to want one of your pups.