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by duke1965 on 27 February 2012 - 17:02
blitzen , do you think titles were for sale in the days of the captain , and do you think different helper work was done those days for different dogs 
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
Well damn, Duke maybe not due to the small number of GSD's at the time and the fact that the Capt would have probably beaten a cheater with a pitchfork. However, I'd be willing to consider offering a substantial bet that it didn't take long for Sch to become corrupted and that happened long before you or I ever knew what a GSD was. I do understand how helpers can influence scores, it happened to a dog I co-owned during the bitework at a European Seiger show. She had her foot viciously stomped on to the point that she screamed out out in pain. An accident? I don't think so.
by workingdogz on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
joanro;
In regards to a breeder using an untitled male,
I think if the breeder has actually worked & titled
a dog or two or 5
in a recognized venue from
zero to ________, it is more acceptable for them
to use an untitled male/female, as one can put some
belief in the fact the breeder has accomplished a
thing or two with working dogs, so knows temperment
etc and will judge a breeding partner for their dog with
that knowledge.
For example, I'd buy a puppy out of an untitled
sire and/or dam from someone like Gustav,
(i have seen some of the dogs he has bred)
or someone like Duke who has also accomplished
much with working dogs.
Would I buy from a novice that had never titled a dog?
Hell NO.
How on earth do they know what it takes to
get a title when they have not done it?
Like duke and Rik said--welcome to the
American Way! Buy titled male/bitch, post lots
of pictures and use all the 'buzz words"on webboards,
and POOF, 'Instant Breeder'.
In regards to a breeder using an untitled male,
I think if the breeder has actually worked & titled
a dog or two or 5
in a recognized venue fromzero to ________, it is more acceptable for them
to use an untitled male/female, as one can put some
belief in the fact the breeder has accomplished a
thing or two with working dogs, so knows temperment
etc and will judge a breeding partner for their dog with
that knowledge.
For example, I'd buy a puppy out of an untitled
sire and/or dam from someone like Gustav,
(i have seen some of the dogs he has bred)
or someone like Duke who has also accomplished
much with working dogs.
Would I buy from a novice that had never titled a dog?
Hell NO.
How on earth do they know what it takes to
get a title when they have not done it?
Like duke and Rik said--welcome to the
American Way! Buy titled male/bitch, post lots
of pictures and use all the 'buzz words"on webboards,
and POOF, 'Instant Breeder'.
by gharsha on 27 February 2012 - 19:02
A quote from v. Stephanitz translated to English that may shed light:
"The proof of the education of the dog for work is a sine qua non for admission for breeding, rather than Exhibition honours, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog's value for breeding. We have opened up for our dog fields of activity enough, and every dog need not necessarily be a master of craft in them; he need not even be permanently at work in them. The chief consideration is that the latent talents in the dog should be brought out, invigorated, and thereby be capabe of being transmitted. It is naturally not enough to give a dog a short period of training, and then to trouble no more about him but to let him run to seed in the kennel; whoever thinks so had better take to breeding guinea-pigs rather than shepherd dogs."
"The proof of the education of the dog for work is a sine qua non for admission for breeding, rather than Exhibition honours, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog's value for breeding. We have opened up for our dog fields of activity enough, and every dog need not necessarily be a master of craft in them; he need not even be permanently at work in them. The chief consideration is that the latent talents in the dog should be brought out, invigorated, and thereby be capabe of being transmitted. It is naturally not enough to give a dog a short period of training, and then to trouble no more about him but to let him run to seed in the kennel; whoever thinks so had better take to breeding guinea-pigs rather than shepherd dogs."
by joanro on 27 February 2012 - 20:02
Working dogs, I wasn't attempting to justify buying from a novice, I'm referring to people looking at a pedigree and evaluating the dog or litter by how many titles appear, wink, wink....And just titling a dog doesn't mean the person now has a grand knowledge of dogs. It takes a lot more than just putting a title on a dog, as you said before, "anyone can title dog". With enough persistence, most dogs can get a title of some sort but that of course doesn't make the dog breeding quality, either.
Seems like the American way now includes buy the dam already bred, sell the pups, breed her right back, and sell her bred. Spend 39 years training not just dogs, but horses, Brahman bulls, camels, buffalo, yak, baboon, wolf hybrids, and even donkeys and mules and you get a pretty good understanding of how to read and assess an animal, including the exalted working GSD. (to which I devote my life).
by Zep on 27 February 2012 - 21:02
What does titleing a dog(s) have to do with the genetics said dog(s) passes down? I would think nothing at all.
Zep--
Zep--
by aaykay on 27 February 2012 - 21:02
Blitzen: I don't know if Horand was titled when purchased. I'm just asking if the Capt eventually set down a directive saying ALL breeding dogs must be titled prior to breeding. If the goal is getting back to basics by doing what the Capt would have wanted, then I guess it's important to recognize whether or not breeding untitled dogs goes against his principles.
The below article, linked by Sunsilver a few pages back, shows how useless these titles are, as far as judging the shepherd. How the showlines, who had SchH2 and SchH3 titles were failing right and left when it came to the courage test......"glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and showlines" as he put it, and shows how big the differences are between the working lines and the current day showlines
==============================
Link: http://tiekerhook.com/index.php/news/103-after-us-the-great-flood.html
Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection. Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung. I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.
There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.
Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”.
I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below. Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition.
===================================
Bottomline, how good are these "titles" that are used to determine breedability of these useless showlines ? Seems like there is quite a bit of winking and nodding going on behind the scenes, and these "titles" awarded to these showline dogs, are not worth the paper they are being printed on......and remember, this is in Germany, the original home of the GSD, and the home ground of the SV. Clearly, money and not performance seems to do the talking here.
How did these showline dogs even get a hold of lofty titles like SchH3, with a rating of "TSB pronounced" in their breed survey, and fail so miserably, when the tread hit the road ? According to the article, "had the helper work been consistent for all dogs, there would have been even more failures"....meaning the showline specimens who actually did manage to pass, took advantage of some serious affirmative action.........and these miserable showline specimens are the flag carrying members of the GSD breed, while those same showline breeders look down their noses at serious working line dogs who don't have the ubiquitous black/red/tan coloration, but can teach these "pretty dog" showlines, what a GSD truly ought to be.
As stated a few pages back, even the German police no longer affirms that the naked emperor is wearing clothes, and have seriously started replacing the GSD with the Belgian Malinois, since the hapless showlines that represent the GSD (and the only ones available in large enough numbers), don't seem to pass muster.
The below article, linked by Sunsilver a few pages back, shows how useless these titles are, as far as judging the shepherd. How the showlines, who had SchH2 and SchH3 titles were failing right and left when it came to the courage test......"glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and showlines" as he put it, and shows how big the differences are between the working lines and the current day showlines
==============================
Link: http://tiekerhook.com/index.php/news/103-after-us-the-great-flood.html
Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection. Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung. I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.
There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.
Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”.
I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below. Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition.
===================================
Bottomline, how good are these "titles" that are used to determine breedability of these useless showlines ? Seems like there is quite a bit of winking and nodding going on behind the scenes, and these "titles" awarded to these showline dogs, are not worth the paper they are being printed on......and remember, this is in Germany, the original home of the GSD, and the home ground of the SV. Clearly, money and not performance seems to do the talking here.
How did these showline dogs even get a hold of lofty titles like SchH3, with a rating of "TSB pronounced" in their breed survey, and fail so miserably, when the tread hit the road ? According to the article, "had the helper work been consistent for all dogs, there would have been even more failures"....meaning the showline specimens who actually did manage to pass, took advantage of some serious affirmative action.........and these miserable showline specimens are the flag carrying members of the GSD breed, while those same showline breeders look down their noses at serious working line dogs who don't have the ubiquitous black/red/tan coloration, but can teach these "pretty dog" showlines, what a GSD truly ought to be.
As stated a few pages back, even the German police no longer affirms that the naked emperor is wearing clothes, and have seriously started replacing the GSD with the Belgian Malinois, since the hapless showlines that represent the GSD (and the only ones available in large enough numbers), don't seem to pass muster.
by aaykay on 27 February 2012 - 22:02
What does titleing a dog(s) have to do with the genetics said dog(s) passes down? I would think nothing at all.
The only good thing I associate with pups from dogs who have been titled honestly, is a hint on trainability. But otherwise, titles in the parents mean nothing to me, since once some high enough titles are awarded, those dogs just cannot be used for any serious work, unless one were to make it unlearn the things it went through during the titling process.
During a recent tracking seminar, the K9 officer explained that the process used during SchH tracking, is totally counter to what a real working dog ought to be doing. Once a high enough title is awarded to such a dog, it is pretty much useless for anything else.
The only good thing I associate with pups from dogs who have been titled honestly, is a hint on trainability. But otherwise, titles in the parents mean nothing to me, since once some high enough titles are awarded, those dogs just cannot be used for any serious work, unless one were to make it unlearn the things it went through during the titling process.
During a recent tracking seminar, the K9 officer explained that the process used during SchH tracking, is totally counter to what a real working dog ought to be doing. Once a high enough title is awarded to such a dog, it is pretty much useless for anything else.
by duke1965 on 27 February 2012 - 22:02
aykaay that tiekerhook interview is funny if you have some more insideknowledge like me , and the reason german police is getting more malinois has to do with other reasons such as pricing and availability
bottom line there is that if I have a good gsd for sale everybody pays more than the german police
if I have a good malinois for sale NOBODY pays more than the german police
think of that for a while
I talked to a leading person of policeK9 training , he told me te best dogs for what they want are germanshepherds , they just cant get them because of financial reasons mostly
everybody in the world will pay more for a good GSD than the police ever can and will
finally people have to stop blaming the showlinebreeders , Koos hassing has to stop blaming the showlinebreeders , the only ones responsible for todays quality of the workinglines are the workinglinebreeders , as they made the choices what dogs to breed , what dogs to keep and which one to sell for $$$$$$ and loose out of their breeding program
every workinglinebreeder who is breeding for 20 or so years and doesnot have better qualitydogs in the kennel than when he started can only blame himself , and not breeders of showline dogs , poodlebreeders and goatherders as they never told him what to do , he himself is fully responsible
bottom line there is that if I have a good gsd for sale everybody pays more than the german police
if I have a good malinois for sale NOBODY pays more than the german police
think of that for a while
I talked to a leading person of policeK9 training , he told me te best dogs for what they want are germanshepherds , they just cant get them because of financial reasons mostly
everybody in the world will pay more for a good GSD than the police ever can and will
finally people have to stop blaming the showlinebreeders , Koos hassing has to stop blaming the showlinebreeders , the only ones responsible for todays quality of the workinglines are the workinglinebreeders , as they made the choices what dogs to breed , what dogs to keep and which one to sell for $$$$$$ and loose out of their breeding program
every workinglinebreeder who is breeding for 20 or so years and doesnot have better qualitydogs in the kennel than when he started can only blame himself , and not breeders of showline dogs , poodlebreeders and goatherders as they never told him what to do , he himself is fully responsible
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 23:02
aakay, my question was simply this - what did the Capt say about titling dogs before breeding? I'm not looking to debate the validity or importance of titling. Title your dogs, don't title your dogs Up to you. Those who don't care will buy puppies or breed to or from untitled dogs, those who care won't. How did the post you referred to written by Sunsilver have anything to do with that question.? Do you know the answer or not? Does anyone?
I would love to hear the response I'd get here if I'd say something like - oh shoot, I know my Am CH can easily get an IPO3. I just won't do it because I know I have a great dog, the judges are cheaters and the title doesn't matter anyway. I'd be tarred and feathered in less than 10 minutes and be asked the obvious question - if it's so easy then why don't you do it?
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