If the Capt. was alive today - Page 23

Thanks, gharsha. That quote is what I am looking for. How did you find that?  Do you know when he said it?

What does "The proof of the education mean"? What about "We have opened up for our dogs fields of activity enough...."

A quote from v. Stephanitz translated to English that may shed light: "The proof of the education of the dog for work is a sine qua non for admission for breeding, rather than Exhibition honours, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog's value for breeding. We have opened up for our dog fields of activity enough, and every dog need not necessarily be a master of craft in them; he need not even be permanently at work in them. The chief consideration is that the latent talents in the dog should be brought out, invigorated, and thereby be capabe of being transmitted. It is naturally not enough to give a dog a short period of training, and then to trouble no more about him but to let him run to seed in the kennel; whoever thinks so had better take to breeding guinea-pigs rather than shepherd dogs."

 

aakay,

Right, but does it really matter?

My pup has 2 2x va1's and a few va1's in it's pedigree on the sire's side. The sire has no title at all but a VP in germany at 3 months.

Honestly I could care less and was just looking for a puppy, i had no idea what a Sieger was let alone a 2x Universal Seiger when I bought him (or my previous 3 shepherds).

I mean given the money and the time and the right circumstance could my pup be a VA1 in Germany? Maybe. Is it "in his genes", maybe, I don't know and probably will not know.

Can I tell my dog is special, well..yes, but I am biased...I love him :)

Zep--

The quote comes from Chapter 3, Breeding, of the 1925 second American edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture.

I cannot answer for "proof of education" but can say that he states:  "...the breeder will lay as much stress on the value of efficient service as on body-build.  In order to attain such and (sic) end, he must consult Pedigrees, lists of working dogs, and the reports of the preliminary trials of young dogs."

He makes a distiction between the breeding "shepherd" and the breeding "dog-lover":

"Just as the shepherd, formerly and to-day, pairs dogs that are particularly efficient in service, to that he may breed for himself a thoroughly good working stock; so too must the dog-lover, in his choice of breeding partners, have a special regard for the characteristics which are necessary for a good working dog, such as teachableness, vim, and the powers of scent."

When he says, "We have opened up for our dogs fields of activity enough...", I take that to mean that there are now (1925 now) enough "fields of activity" so that we should always find some useful work for our dogs to do.

Breeding to the letter of the v. Stephanitz law also includes such dictums as supporting no more than two bitches in a breeding program, and culling litters down to a maximum of six pups, preferably four or five.

duke1965: bottom line there is that if I have a good gsd for sale everybody pays more than the german police
                                   if I have a good malinois for sale NOBODY pays more than the german police

Really ?  Have you thought about the serious political in-correctness of the German police eschewing the GSD and going with the Malinois, and how it would have taken a LOT for them to take such an extreme step ? 

This is akin to US cops replacing their trusted Ford and GM cop cars, with Toyota Avalons/Honda Accords/Hyundai Sonatas or congressmen and senators deciding to skip their US nameplates with say Japanese or Korean or European nameplate vehicles.   Just not going to happen in any kind of normal circumstance, unless the Ford or GM products are deemed to be truly unsafe and there is no other option but to go with a non-US nameplate.

You are seriously underestimating the political correctness aspect of the move made by the German cops.

I completely agree that a "thinking" animal like the working line GSD is hands-down the better choice for the cops, when compared to a prey-monkey like the Malinois.  Unfortunately, there are not enough working line GSD specimens available for sale, while the showlines (that ARE available) - except for some rare exceptions - are no longer structurally/temperamentally suitable for the purpose for which the breed was created - to work !

don't know what a mal or gsd cost in germany, but where I live, WL GSD´s cost about twice as much as Mals.

it is all about money , a good GSD at age 10 to 15 months will not go to the police in germany or holland as they simply dont pay enough ,bottom line is money , not political corectness

also prices paid worldwide for a top WUSV participant are much higher than prices paid for a top FMBB participant , economics thats most of it

I guess back to the future isn't going to happen. Who would agree to cull their litters down to 5 puppies and never keep more than 2 brood bitches. I assume that was intended  to prevent the market from being flooded with GSD's,  and/or to discourage breeding GSD's for commercial sales and to give owners the time needed to bond and work with their dogs and "prove their education".

Times have changed; I'm pretty sure we all know what the Capt would say if he were alive....but what would we say?

"Just as the shepherd, formerly and to-day, pairs dogs that are particularly efficient in service, to that he may breed for himself a thoroughly good working stock; so too must the dog-lover, in his choice of breeding partners, have a special regard for the characteristics which are necessary for a good working dog, such as teachableness, vim, and the powers of scent."
 
Thanks, gharsha. Do you know if that book is still available?

Blitzen, times have changed---dramatically. The shepherds of today, in this country at least, are most likely using border collies, not GSDs. As far as culling litters down to 4 or 5, there are some people doing that with other breeds, black mouth mountain cur, for example, but would take a hard heart. Speaking for myself, any sales are conducted personally not commercially. If "the dog lover" of today wants a GSD, and no one had any more the two females for breeding, how long is the family of dog lovers going to have to wait for a quality dog with teachableness, vim, and powers of scent? Especially since only five pups at most are allowed to survive. He was speaking of much different place in time.

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Blitzen, Actually, I'm not. As far as being a "product", that should not happen with anything intended for a companion, regardless of breed. He also said that the GSD should not be bred for exhibition. Be careful rolling on the floor, you might hurt yourself:)