If the Capt. was alive today - Page 3

KitKat 2478

You mention in your post about the influence of Arminius and Wienerau dogs being influential in the days of creating today’s working dogs. The reason behind this is that at that time the division in the breed between s/l and w/l was not as it is today. It was mainly one breed at that time. Remember that Arminius was the name for Hermann Martin’s kennel and Wienerau kennel was his brother’s. Hermann Martin was President at this time and therefore it comes as no surprise as to the influence of the two kennels. There were also questions about Zamb v d Wienerau that rumbled on for years regarding the true status of his hips. He could not get an acceptable hip score in Germany and he was sent to Italy to be scored and came back with an acceptable result. Another point to be considered is that in those times the dogs were better trained to ensure that they had correct sch h qualifications and, the S/L trainers were better, IMO, than those we have now. The dogs must have the basic attributes to be a working dog but it also depends very much on good trainers moulding those attributes in to the desired end product. Quando’s sire Xaver v Arminius has a character defect in that he bordered on naturally being savage.

Captain Max forecast in his writings right from the beginning and gave warning about everything that we see today and is not in the best interest of the GSD.

Mackenzie

 

Thank you Mackenzie!!! 

One of the issues that I see is how the tests for a dog to be considered a breeding animal have been watered down (and continue to be watered down). 

It used to be that the SchH test or the HGH test was to see if a dog had the nerve, intelligence, bidability and drive to be a dog worthy of passing on its genes.  The test was outside of what the dog was used for to do actual work such as Police or Herding work.

The tests became a sport.. a goal in and of themselves.. and ceased to be tests but became, instead, a sport replete with the race for trophies and titles.  When that happens, the goals change and then there needs to be a different measure to determine if a dog has what it takes to pass on its genes. 

I recall seeing a Black and White film of an OLD tracking test (not even sure where I saw it).  The dog had to track over varied terraine and through brush and brambles and across fence lines and at the end, he found a "bad guy" all suited up with a stick and a blank pistol.  The dog's job was to find that "bad guy" who could be anywhere (not always in a blind) and then detain him.  At first the dog would bark and hold and the bad guy would then try to run and the dog had to stop him with a bite and a grip.  The dog had to hear gun fire and take stick hits.  The stick hits and the gun fire actually escalated the dog's intensity and the good dogs were in it because they enjoyed the fight!  It was very cool to see this film.

That sort of test found out if a dog had hunt drive, defense drive and combat drive and the nerve and courage to use those drives.  The dogs were off lead for the film I saw. 

Some of our good Schutzhund dogs would do this test fine today.. but a lot of them would not. 

I would think that Max would have wanted them able to do the test in the black and white film I saw.  I think Max would be very disappointed today.  I think Max is turning over in his grave at where the breed has gone.




 

The most impressive and awesome test of character that I saw a dog put through was on a video of a German Police Dog trial. The dog was sent on a long chase and midway he was buzzed by a helicopter no more than 10/12 feet above the dog. The dog did not hesitate but kept focused on the man he was chasing and eventually captured him after the man pointed a gun at the dog and fired from close range. I hate to think what would happen if any dog today were to be put through the same test. Magnificent.

Mackenzie

 

i watched some of the westminster(sp) dog show. the gsd on there was a disgrace. i thought he would loose his hips going around the ring.what a shame!!

Mackenzie & Rass, thank you so much indeed, your contribution is priceless.

Rass said:

I recall seeing a Black and White film of an OLD tracking test (not even sure where I saw it).  The dog had to track over varied terraine and through brush and brambles and across fence lines and at the end, he found a "bad guy" all suited up with a stick and a blank pistol.  The dog's job was to find that "bad guy" who could be anywhere (not always in a blind) and then detain him.  At first the dog would bark and hold and the bad guy would then try to run and the dog had to stop him with a bite and a grip.  The dog had to hear gun fire and take stick hits.  The stick hits and the gun fire actually escalated the dog's intensity and the good dogs were in it because they enjoyed the fight!  It was very cool to see this film.

Not knowing any better that is how we trained out first dogs to track in the late 70's, a fight and a bite at the end of a long and difficult track over varied terrain. Then things changed in the early 80's when we started attending Schutzhund seminars. We were then introduced to FST (foot step tracking), food for drive and easy short tracks on immaculate terrain.

No doubt, breeding dogs for show on one side and for "sports points" on the other side has had a crippling effect on the breed. 

Why is it every thread intended to be a serious discussion on the breed  is used by a few to bash the ASL's or the GSL's. Are you people dillusional or do you suffer from terminal kennel blindness? Do you really think the WL's couldn't stand some improving? So what if you didn't like the BOB dog at the Garden? Who cares?

My apologies to the OP for stepping in here. I don't normally engage in this my dog's better than your dog BS. It's a bad way to put the damper on a good discussion.

Please excuse my ignorance but how can the Show Lines better the Working Lines or contribute to the health, temperment or physical qualities?

Ronin

One solution would be a breedclub with two directions but under the same roof, one for show and one for work/sport. Breeders must choose one direction and follow gudelines for the choosen direction, woringkingbreeders could continue to find ways to improve health and workingability and things that concern the working GSD, the showbreeders can countinue with the goal and intresst they have now. Everyone gains on this, the puppybuyers can choose the type of GSD they want and the fight between show and workingbreeders would come to an end, support the direction you are intressted in and improve the type of GSD you are a breeder of.

This is the way for the future I belive, the same suggestion but more detailed one big breeder of working GSDs wrote about on his website/blogg here in sweden, where the breedclub apparantly are more into show and many are dissaopointed with the lack of common goals in the breedclub, seems like the same story in the SV. The other solution is just to do nothing, but with shrinking popularity of the breed and no consensus on what a GSD should look and act like this seems like a bad alternative.

Blitzen, also mentioned was how the 'sport' has ruined them too.   It is just a fact.