How do I raise a confident dog - Page 9

"But in general layman's terms, I think it's fair to say 99.9% of all dogs born in the world come with a clean slate."


"Not all of them will fit into your pack and you won't always be the correct owner for certain types of dogs.  More than likely it will be because you’re not ready for that type."


Both from your posts, Maywood.

Yes, that's absolutely correct; I couldn't have said it in a single post better than that.  Thanks Minro.
 
Keith, be careful in taking my words out of context.  But in a nutshell, what I was trying to say there is that dogs that are continuously challenging your Alpha status are essentially wild animals and do not belong in the domesticated spectrum at all.

This thread is absurd. At least now I am aware of who knows what they are talking about when it comes to dogs. (and especially who doesn't)

"Keith, be careful in taking my words out of context. But in a nutshell, what I was trying to say there is that dogs that are continuously challenging your Alpha status are essentially wild animals and do not belong in the domesticated spectrum at all."

I didn't take your words out of context.  You are discussing varying degrees of exactly the same elements of temperament (whether you recognize it or not) and are simultaneously saying that at one extreme it is genetic and that at the other it isn't.  You can't have it both ways.  Perhaps you should educate yourself on the various drives involved and how they interact, apply that newly gained knowledge to the dogs with whom you are working or have worked and reassess your predispositions about the degree to which genetics play a part in the overall temperament of a dog.  I guarantee you that they do.  I am currently in a private discussion with several people who are all experiencing exactly the same character traits from all of their male progeny from the same sire despite the disparity of the environments in which they were raised.  Nuture is absolutely part of the equation but it does not nor will it ever overcome nature.

I have been trying my damnest NOT to get involved with this thread. but this comment ""But in general layman's terms, I think it's fair to say 99.9% of all dogs born in the world come with a clean slate."   had me spinning.  What is this based on?  OK we have 15-25 % right of the top that are born with various mental illness OCD, Fear based issues, actual mental illnesses.  Then we have illnesses taking another portion of dogs brain tumors, epilepsy those sort of issues.  Now if I get this right all you have to do is be confident and you will have a confident dog?????  I call BS on that for sure.  Chaz said it best on here. His answer was concise and very well worded.  Genetics in all humans and animals plays the biggest role in  development.  Yes socialize your pups but for heaven sake.  The pup is what it is a birth and there is nothing a human can do to alter that.  You can shape certain behaviors but you will never ever change what a pup was born as.  I will use my own genetics as an example.  I have nordic heritage.  We are well known to be stubborn to a fault.  My parents tried to beat it out of me ( old school parenting)  did it turn me into a fearful shy person?   Ummm nope... For the record I wasnt well socialized either.........I is who I is and nothing can change that, same goes for dogs

As repeated by many on this thread, start with good
genetics. Then, get the pup out to see the world. 

And by good genetics, I'm not just referring to a 
pup coming from a litter with some good dogs in 
the 3rd, 4th and 5th generation. Look hard at both
the sire and dam, they have to offer something of
worth to the puppy, otherwise it doesn't matter
what dog(s) are farther back.

You start with shit, you end up with shit.
Start with a good base, you should end up
with a decent pup. 

Minro – this thread is not absurd and you of all people should pay close attention.  I didn’t want to say it earlier because I was trying to be nice and I wanted you to learn on your own but maybe taking that dog to crazy downtown Chicago around all of those crazy ass people socializing the SHIT out of it might have had something to do with why your dog is a spook.  It wouldn’t surprise me at all if that environment simply scared the shit out of that puppy and permanently scarred him for life.  Now you need to man up and take responsibility for that and take better care that never happens again rather than blaming it all on the dogs genetics.
 
Keith, yes you are taking my words out of context and are now putting words in my mouth.  I was distinguishing between normal domesticated dogs and dogs that are continuously challenging your Alpha status with the latter ("TRULY ALPHA DOGS" for lack of a better description) being the equivalent to wild animals.  You can't group them into the same group at all because they are totally different animals.  One is a normal domesticated dog while the other is specifically bred for a certain type of disposition by a specific group of experienced breeders.  "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" are not appropriate for the average Joe as only experienced dog handlers familiar with all the different drives you are referring to can handle them.  I’m well aware of all of the different drives and have worked with several of these types of animals.  Working with "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" requires a depth of understanding most people don't even care to learn about.  Most people simply want a normal domesticated dog.  Placing "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" in these types of homes can be more detrimental to the breed than anything else.  And yes, I do consider "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" genetically unsound due their wild nature.  Nature gave us a domesticated dog and man has purposefully bred the domestication back out of them in this case using what I believe to be genetically unsound dogs to achieve this.  I mean let's face it, if a dog is continuously challenging your Alpha status they are essentially wild animals.  Comparing the two is the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Workingdogzzz - so according to you, don't even think about visiting your local Humane Society and getting a dog from there.  They are all shit and worthless because of their bad genetics.  Purebred breeders and owners can sometimes be so full of themselves. 

Listen people, blaming problems with a dog on the dog’s genetics are simply an excuse to cover up the owner/trainers incompetence with that type of dog.  The sooner you come to grips with this idea the sooner you will begin to learn that the majority of all dogs can be raised into confident happy dogs and then the fun really begins.

Lol, Maywood. I have done that with ALL OF MY PUPPIES. They’ve all handled it beautifully and were/are confident in every way. The one that couldn't handle it? Well, that's because it IS genetics. Don’t worry, you aren’t being mean, just ignorant.
 
Please, let me get this straight.
 
You are essentially saying that: two puppies, one from the spookiest, nerviest, scared-of-everything parents, and the other from two of the most confident and social parents, are the EXACT SAME? And their temperament is entirely dependent on how they are raised?
 
Like I said… this thread is absurd.

As someone mentioned earlier, this thread has turned into a Nature vs. Nurture discussion.   From my many psychology classes, this discussion always comes up and it is never resolved.  As frequently happens, now each side is starting to get very defensive and unkind.

All of you are very knowledgeable people, but you have lost sight of the original OP.  We should be here to help them.  It is what it is with their new dog; genetics or not.  They are confident that they have a good one; don't change that, as no one will win. 

The OP just wants advice on how not to "ruin" their new dog.  We can all give them that.  Notice how we have not heard from the OP?  Did we turn them off of this forum?

We all want this breed to be the very best it can be.  This can only be done one dog at a time.  Every time the public sees a GSD, we should feel responsible to help insure they see the best; both in conformation and in discipline.  Will we ever get there, probably not, but that should not stop us from trying.  Especially when a new owner comes along and asks for our genuine advice.

I realize some people are unreachable but I’m going to go the extra mile just for you Minro because you really need to understand this.  All because you did this with all of your other dogs does not necessarily mean it will be appropriate for every dog you own now or in the future.  As I said, each dog is different and each dog may require a slightly different approach in being raised.  As for your spooked dog, a learned owner/trainer would have been able to recognize that a different approach would have been necessary for that particular dog based on how the puppy reacted initially to the environment you were putting him into.  Since all dogs are slightly different, there is no single cookie cutter approach one can apply to all dogs you will come into contact with.  You must remain completely flexible in all of your training methods with all of the dogs you train throughout your lifetime.

Thanks Fawndallas for keeping us grounded by maintaining the voice of reason.  But I do believe the information I am providing will ultimately help the OP in their approach in raising their new puppy.