Unhappy customers mittlewest - Page 3

Wow people really do read and see what they want to.  Way to take the the text out of context.  You bolded a couple of lines when you read all the unbold sections and the entire article it points to the contrary.  

actually read the entire citation and not pick and choose what you want to see: this is from the article you posted the link to, and EVERYWHERE IN THE ARTICLE it suggests that hip dysplasia is far more enviornmental then genetic.

Quoting Tom Phillips, DVM, MS, PhD:

"Both heredity and environmental factors are important in the development of CHD. CHD has an estimated inheritability that ranges from 0.2 to 0.6, with 0.0 being non-inherited condition and 1.0 meaning that a condition is completely under genetic control. Thus, demonstrating that CHD is a condition where both the environment and the genetics of the dog play a role in the development of this disease.

The interaction between the dog's genetic makeup and environment determine whether an individual dog will develop CHD. The genetics of the dog, to a large part, determine if a given dog has the potential to allow the environmental factors to act in such a way that CHD is produced. However, even dogs that are not genetically predisposed to develop CHD can contract the disease if they are pushed too hard when young by hyper-nutrition and excessive exercise."

"All of which means environmental factors can contribute to the development of hip dysplasia, but it doesn't cause the condition."  Seriously? Are you for real dude just:

READ YOUR THE ABOVE QUOTE THEN READ THE LAST LINE IN BOLD.

On another not why are you trying to argue with me when I was speaking to: Mr. Grossman?  Secondly I never said genetics wasn't a factor,  I only stated that those who know more than both of us and the research out there suggests enviornment is a GREATER FACTOR PERIOD.  Now unless you can provide information coming from an authority on the matter such as a: geneticist, zoologist, or vetinarian perhaps quit wasting your time.  I am open minded to being wrong, but I have short tolerance for "denial".   Maybe you're feeling guilty on some sort of subconcious level, because people don't want to accept that a large portion of the reason some of their dogs may have developed CHD is because of "their own actions." 

On another note I've read that the wrong type of harness on a puppy can contribute to elbow dysplasia, also too much fetch where they go full speed and stop on a dime for a ball that has stopped in its tracks.  Anyone wiht insite on these issues, I'd care to learn more.

One can in a few minutes on Google find "scientific" studies to support any side of an issue. For or against global warming, no problem, pick the scientist you want to believe. How about the drought now going on in the U.S., one scientist says global warming, another El Nino, still another destruction of the rain forests.

Through out the history of the GSD, there are dogs noted for the production of good and dogs for poor hips. What causes one dog to produce a high % of good hips and another a low %. I guess the good producer is only mated on a grass surface, after a healthy breakfast.

What is the approach of the SV, the club founded at the creation of the GSD, to the causes of and improving HD.

Do I think that environment can contribute to HD, sure I do. Things like playing in the hiway and getting hit by a truck, being repeatedly slammed into a wall, kicked with steel toed boots, forced to exercise on a frozen over pond are all environmental and can lead to bad hips. It's called injury, and an injury does not cause the passing on of HD.

jmo (and experience),


Rik 

Hip Dysplasia, Ch. 83. Riser, Rhodes and Newton

In a study involving 236 German shepherds, it was demonstrated that the most reliable way to eliminate canine hip dysplasia was through the establishment of "pedigree depth," that is, by the use of ancestral lines of dogs radiographically free of hip dysplasia.(33)

Results of controlled breeding programs in Sweden further indicated that the prevalence of hip dysplasia in the German shepherd was substantially reduced by mating only dogs with radiographically normal hips.(7,50) Similar decreases in prevalence have occurred in another controlled breeding program in a colony of guide dogs (Seeing Eye, Inc. Morristown, NJ).

In another account, with 584 progeny in a closed colony of German shepherds, it was shown that the prevalence of hip dysplasia was noticeably reduced by selectively breeding dogs proved radiographically to have normal hips at 1 year of age or older. In 3-1/2 years the incidence of hip dysplasia was lowered from 39% to less than 17%.(64) The male dogs in this colony had a wide variation in their ability to transmit normal hips to their progeny. For example, only 8.7% of the progeny of one dog with radiographically normal hips at 2 years of age developed hip dysplasia, whereas 37.8% of the pups of another dog with similar radiologic evaluation mated to the same bitches developed hip dysplasia.(20)  

Blaming the environment for HD is a loophole that allows breeders to not make good on a dog with HD. Either guarantee against HD or don't. Don't make all sorts of excuses for why a dog has HD and stop blaming the buyers. The cost of replacing a dog is a normal part of doing business in the dog world.  This is the only breed I know of where breeders think they should be able to get away with crap like this. Try it in another breed and  your name will  mean shit in a very short time.

Or, simply don't offer a guarantee.  

But those pups generally sell for about 400-700EU 

Correct, don't offer a contract and sell the dogs at reasonable pet prices.

Hey, to us, a 'reasonable' and 'fair market' price 
is usually what a pup from two titled/koered parents
that at the least made it to the LGA's goes for. Which,
is right around $4-700EU. Expect to pay a little more 
of the higher end of that scale if the sire/dam or both
made it to the BSP/WUSV.  Of course then you must
factor in pedigree, the previous proven ability of both
sire/dam as producers etc. But still, you can buy a
pretty well bred puppy from a good breeder in EU that
titles/tests their dogs for a reasonable price. No little
'strings' attached, you buy the dog free and clear, and
you are then responsible for the dog. No expectations
other than a healthy puppy at time of delivery.

This way, no one has hurt feelings or cries 'foul' when
something happens and they get the cold shoulder etc
from the breeder. Like a few wise ones have said, simply
STOP paying uber stupid prices, and the breeders will
have to make adjustments to the price, and the manner
in which they sell their puppies. I personally prefer the
good old days, breeders sold puppies 'as is', for a reasonable
price and that was it. Sure, you might keep in contact, and
if there was a problem, most breeders will step up and
offer a replacement etc.
 
We've purchased pups from Germany that had bad hips
or a bad elbow, we let the breeder know. Three times it
has happened all three times the breeders have offered
another puppy when we wanted one. We have never
accepted, it's part of buying a living thing-shit happens.

Like talking to a wall.... sigh.  I agree genetics is a a contributing factor; however, if you do your research you'll find enviornmental causes are a huge portion.  @ Rik that study supports the source I used.  Is 22% reduction isn't an overwhelming statistic.  That was one study and most I've seen show wayless than 22% reduction.  Also you have to take that last paragraph in context.  Common sense would dictate that the breeder taking care and breeding two passing hip dogs together is also probably providing a much better ENVIORNMENT (i.e. proper nutriiton, no excessive exercise for pus, and the likilihood the pups remain in a controlled enviornment longer, breeders with integrity often don't let pups go tilll 12 weeks and many times sell older dogs)  <---- This in itself could easily make a up a large portion of the 22% reduction if not all of it.  I've said my peace.  All I can say is 2 months ago I thought like the rest of you and thought it was all Genetic and after worrying constanlty about my growing pup, who is 14 weeks btw, I decided I needed to get to the bottom of it so I did actual research and found out I was ill informed.  I believed all the nonesense that many of you do, but the logic facts and research I have found suggests at the very least enviornment is equal to genetics in regards to CHD if not a much larger factor.  Who knows, maybe 20 years from now they'll find out that CHD was due to commercial low grade dog foods.  You think the dog food industry is has more integrity than people food inustry?  FDA regulates our food which isn't saying much we are the sickest country on the planet Diabetes, Obesity, ect running rampat. I bet many of you are obese and eat processed foods without any education on what you're actually consuming. 

I am very proud to say, I offer a LIFETIME GUARANTEE on ANY German Shepherd that is bred by me, against ANY and ALL Genetic Defects. I will gladly replace a pup, AND, I would not require the return of original dog (pup). PLAIN AND SIMPLE.(and I WILL ALWAYS,take back one of my dogs). I have been very fortunate to not have to have done that, although I don't have a problem donating or gifting a pup to someone either. My MOTTO on that is, if you can't stand behind the dogs you breed, you have NO BUSINESS breeding them. Word of mouth goes along way, and I DO have a waiting list for my dogs, including The NYS Police.