Unhappy customers mittlewest - Page 9

@ OGBS

 see you guys are still going on and on about this, it's okay denial is a long drawn out practice.

First of all don't use big words you don't understand.  Do you even know what a polygenic trait is?  A polygenic trait is a distinguishing characteristic in which the phenotype (i.e. the appearance) depends on alleles in multiple genes. 

Futher more in the first paragraph of your wikepedia site reference:

Hip dysplasia is an abnormal formation of the hip socket that, in its more severe form, can eventually cause crippling lameness and painful arthritis of the joints. It is a genetic (polygenic) trait that is affected by environmental factors. It can be found in many animals and occasionally in humans, but is most commonly associated with dogs, and is common in many dog breeds, particularly the larger breeds.

Hip dysplasia is one of the most studied veterinary conditions in dogs, and the most common single cause of arthritis of the hips.^[1]

 

abnormal formation of the hip socket = improper growth and how does improper growth occur? partially due to genetics and partially due to diet and caloric intake i.e. ENVIORNMENT SMART GUY


  shame on you, for those in Denial I fell sorry for you and all of your dogs and your children for that matter.

 

The fact of the matter is genetics and enviornment takes both play a factor and I never said otherwise.  I do know; however, that the enviornmental factors are just as big as a concern.

Thing is, what everyone here has been trying to tell you DDRdude,
that the condition has to be there before the 'environment' can
exacerbate it.  

Sort of like ACL tears etc. Most times, the dog is predisposed to
weak knees etc due to structure. The conformation of the dog
will contribute to the dog being more prone to a tear.

"...that is affected by environmental factors."

Affected, not caused.

I do think that "extreme" environmental conditions can affect joint development.

But any research that at the outset begins with contaminated test groups and comes to any concrete findings, other than the original cause of the contamination, should not only be viewed with skepticism, but is flawed from the beginning. Regardless of the academic degrees and # of letters following the scientist/researcher name. 

No grouping of GSD anywhere in the world can be put together free of the genetic contamination of HD.

The most valid point, for me, was made in synopses of the study I posted above.

In  a closed colony:
"For example, only 8.7% of the progeny of one dog with radiographically normal hips at 2 years of age developed hip dysplasia, whereas 37.8% of the pups of another dog with similar radiologic evaluation mated to the same bitches developed hip dysplasia.(20)  "

C''mon Folks, I think the particulars of HD is pretty well documented. Let's let everyone believe what they want.

Can't we just agree never to use the phrase "HD can be CAUSED by environmental factors" ???

I bet the majority of the PDB members believe that HD  is caused by Tim Helser and/or Steve Leigh.

Has anyone read the book published by Dr. Bellfield (hope I got his name right. It has been a few years since I read the book)
He did research into the nutritional influence on desease in dogs. He bred 4 pairs of dysplastic dogs and made sure that the bitches and puppies had extra vitamin C and other nutrients. Apparently not one puppy from these dysplastic parents developed hip dysplasia. If hip dysplasia is genetic, how is it not one pup got hip dysplasia?  And you have to ask, since the majority of good breeders, and the SV insist on xraying and breeding only clear dogs, why does it still turn up? I think that nutrition and environment play a bigger factor than what was previously thought. Also over vaccinating can also cause issues. So can spaying and neutering too young. Have vets actually determined the genes that are linked to hip dysplasia? Have they actually proved it's genetic or are they assuming it is.  I think they use the phrase "multi factoral" because they don't actualy know. And probably because all of the other factors, like nutrition etc. it makes it harder to pinpoint the actual cause. I have also been told a dog was dysplastic at 12 months when there was nothing wrong with the dog, just bad positioning. Dog had certified hips at 3. He has consistently produced really good hips and elbows in his offspring.  I have learned over the years to take what the vets tell me with a grain of salt and to do my own research. JMO

Well said....very well said...I have seen with my own dog/dogs.......positioning is a key factor.  You always hear................they never get better..only worse.  Too many dogs....same exact dog... have VERY DIFFERENT hip scores.  I read the book.......gives everyone something to think about....IF you are one prone to think.