A Noob's Guide/Journey to a Personal Protection GSD - Page 1

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MichaelCox

by MichaelCox on 11 December 2012 - 19:12

***Disclaimer: Unfortunately I think we need one here, I have no ax to grind no wheels to grease, I'm simply laying out my OPINION and findings on what I have done and seen with my own two eye's. Some of you will undoubtedly be offended in some way. Please try and remember it's not my intent to harm or further any breeder/dealers business. I’m hoping this post will help new people that are looking for what I was find it more easily.

About six months ago I decided I wanted to get a guard dog so I got on Google and started looking around after about two months of looking I started calling all the flashy website breeder/dealers and started inquiring about a personal protection dog. I was a bit taken back by the prices I was quoted $20,000-$75,000. Well there was no way in hell I was going to pay $75k for a dog. I’ve gotten by with just a pistol and my eyeballs for awhile and decided I would continue to do so.

After about another month I started looking again but this time came from a different angle I started looking up forums for PPD’s and found a few, I then joined PBD and laid out my questions about how much I should expect to pay. I got some great, good, okay, and not useful answers. The one thing I did get from it was to see posters true colors, some wanted to sell me a dog some just wanted to tell me what an idiot I am and then the ones that truly have/had nothing to gain but offered good sound advice/help. Here is how it ended up.

First things first
First off use the search function and search for (Personal Protection Dogs or PPD) then start reading and you will find out real fast who the respected helpful posters are and who the holier-than-thou ones are. This will help you sift through the BS and get the knowledge faster.

My journey
After posting and what not I realized that I have a good source of info in my town. I work closely with the local Sheriff’s office so I called a few of the guys there and found out what they pay for dogs and so on. Come to find out they rarely pay anything over $12K. So in my opinion any breeder/dealer that is trying to sell the public a dog for more than what a PD pays for one is being a bit too opportunistic for my blood.

So with the help of a few people here I created a list of breeder/dealers that I wanted to look at. I had about six (6) and then whittled those down to about four (4) for various reasons but mostly it was because of reports of bad business dealings, lack of communication and so on that scared me away.

The four
Ty Morgane
There was a local guy Ty Morgane that was recommended but he didn’t last long, he actually got pissed off because “I’m the breeder/dealer and you told me this is what you were looking for and I’m telling you here it is and if you don’t get it you’re crazy!” mind you I have never met this man or seen his dog in person.

Alpine K9/Hans (Prager) Phx, AZ
Next since I’m near Phoenix I had to visit Alpine K9 not quite a 4hr round trip drive so no big deal. I went out and met with Hans and he showed me a few dogs none of which looked sickly but I have to say I was not impressed with the way the dogs were kept. He has way too many dogs for even two people to take care of (I counted about 35 I could see and there was another area I didn’t go in). I know he is revered around here but the dogs needed a serious grooming and the kennels needed a lot of attention. He may be a very nice guy and he may produce some very good dogs but I simply couldn’t risk doing business with him based on the negatives I have read and the condition of the dogs. (Please no hate mail over this it’s just what I saw.)

K9 Specialists/Petr Denver, CO
I spoke with Petr on the phone several times we eventually came up with a time for me to fly out and visit I flew out there and met with him and he showed me about four (4) dogs all of varying levels of training. One of the dogs that I truly wanted to see was no longer available that was okay because he had three (3) others I wanted to see left. The best OB dog he decided he wanted to keep for competition which I was upset about but understood it. The second dog looked good and I thought we had something until I asked to see its civil side (will it bit a man not the equipment) Petr obliged me in showing me some bite work which was good until we got to the hidden sleeve which then the dogs weaknesses started showing. By Petr’s own admission his dogs are trained in Sport and not PPD and if/when the occasion arises that he needs a PPD they start working with the dogs. I’m sure this is an acceptable practice to some but it just doesn’t work for me.

To me all PPD’s can be sport dogs but not all sport dogs can be PPD’s.

I did find it strange that Petr never showed me his kennels; he went to the back and brought the dogs out one at a time. To be fair I didn’t push the issue about going back there so I can’t say that he was hiding anything I just can’t speak to the conditions of his kennels. I will say the dogs looked healthy and happy and if I wanted a sport dog I wouldn’t hesitate to do business with him.

Alert K9/Birgit (Bhall) Reidsville, NC
I spoke with Birgit (Brigit) through email a couple of times and then finally got her on the phone. She is not easy to get on the phone and after I visited her place I have a better understanding of why. Brigit runs the kennels as a one woman operation so her day is eaten up with grooming, cleaning kennels, health care and so on. I flew out on a Sunday met with Mike Baker (more on him in a minute) and drove out to the kennels. It’s a nice size property and I was able to see all the dogs. I’m guessing she has/had about 15-20 dogs give or take a few. All the kennels were clean and the dogs all looked healthy even the ones that literally just came in within the week. I selected about six (6) to look at, her and Mike pulled them out one by one just to throw the ball around check their plumbing and overall demeanor. The next day we met with all six dogs at the local Sheriff’s training facility and started running the dogs threw some testing. I then whittled those down to three (3) dogs and then the hard part I had to get it down to just one dog. I disqualified one but couldn’t decide between the last two. One is a solid black and the other a red sable. I wanted a red sable but the black one is super impressive.

So what did Birgit do? She allowed both dogs to receive further training and when I go back to the handlers’ school I can decide then. That is customer service to the highest degree. She didn’t have to do that and I did give her a small non-refundable deposit but it’s a small one and I personally feel that her and Mike are going above and beyond to make sure I’m happy.

Quick note about Mike Baker I just met him and he has been a huge source of info for me. He has just retired from 30 years of LE and is the one running the handler’s school in January. Him and Birgit have started some type of partnership but I’m not privy to it all so you would have to ask her about it but I think it’s a good fit for both of them and even more so for their PPD customers.
 
Contract and Guarantees
You do what you think is best for you and your dog when you get some type of contract or guarantee but in my opinion they are somewhat stupid.

Anyone that believes another person would return a dog/animal after months and years of caring for it loving it and so on shouldn’t be breathing oxygen. There is no way in hell I would love a dog for any period of time over a week that I would give it back and get another. So when you are looking for some type of health guarantee make sure it’s reasonable for you to do.

Everyone on this board is an animal lover and I cringe when I hear people say Send the dog back! good luck with that. You can have my dog, cat or fish when you step over my dead body! Even then I hope my dog bites you my cats claw your eyes out and my fish eat your fish.

Good luck in your search...
 
PS. Admin I think it would be good to have a PPD section on PDB.

supakamario

by supakamario on 11 December 2012 - 19:12

Star

roughstockkennel

by roughstockkennel on 11 December 2012 - 19:12

Enjoyed reading this post!

fawndallas

by fawndallas on 11 December 2012 - 19:12

Thumbs Up

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 11 December 2012 - 20:12

Michael Cox said: Anyone that believes another person would return a dog/animal after months and years of caring for it loving it and so on shouldn’t be breathing oxygen. There is no way in hell I would love a dog for any period of time over a week that I would give it back and get another. 

Sadly, there are MANY MANY people out there who do just that. Many see dogs as tools to accomplish a job, not as individuals, companions with emotional needs of their own. There are several breeders I know of who don't require a dog to be returned in order to get a replacement, but unfortunately, many people will give the dog up anyway, if it isn't perfect. The really nauseating ones are the ones who go through them like water, one after the next, finding something wrong with every one of them, like a revolving door. Is there really something wrong with all of them or, perhaps...is the owner either unrealistic in his/her goals or a poor trainer? My point is that while I see what you're saying and I envy you your naivete, there are MANY folks who will ditch a dog when the dog needs them most. To say "anyone who believes this to be true shouldn't be breathing oxygen" is a bit misdirected and misguided, imho. 

If more people had your devotion to their pets, for sure, dogs would be better off. 


by Ibrahim on 11 December 2012 - 20:12

Thanks for sharing your search experience, much info to learn and make use of, Alert K9/Birgit (Bhall) Reidsville, NC Thumbs Up

MichaelCox

by MichaelCox on 11 December 2012 - 20:12

Jenni,

You can say that I'm naive if you like and your experience very well may be that people run through dogs/animals like water. However, I would suggest that it is the others that believe there is such a thing as a perfect dog that are naive. So when you boil it down my way is the correct way but please don't misunderstand me here I'm fully aware that the oxygen thieves will continue to do just that.

PS. I love your avatar.

by Ibrahim on 11 December 2012 - 20:12

PS. I love your avatar.

That dog in the avatar has the ideal front, never seen a cleaner front, the straightness from shoulder to toe is excellent, also the chest front shape and width is perfect, the face expression and that look in the eye is beyond words

Rik

by Rik on 11 December 2012 - 21:12

Michael, It looks as though you have been very through in your quest. Here's wishing you and your new best buddy many good years together. And how about some pics when you get him home.Teeth Smile

Rik

by vk4gsd on 11 December 2012 - 22:12

good character to  use yr real name in such a post. i found yr experience weirdly re-assuring, familiar and slightly amusing as it reflects my own experience to the letter with only the names changed. i joined the forums (not this one) for the exact same reasons you did. my noobness shined thru and theinternet  vultures had a field day with me. it was only some time later that i found out that the majority of people mocking me have never trained a dog to do zip except be nice pets that they bully constantly.

my advice is don't give up so easy dude as the path i took worked more than fine - firstly trust only yr eyes, peds, titles, certs mean almost nothing in this. if you have average intelligence then most of the fakers are easy to pick with a bit of phone conversation, a smaller number are pro fakers and you won't be able to tell over the phone if the are for real, this requires the next step. when you have narrowed down yr search don't first go see the breeder, go see the dogs the breeder has produced and talk to the owners - a good breeder will be more than happy to do this as the dogs he/she bred is the best advertising  + happy customers he can get. allow for the context and the training of the progeny you see, some dogs have little chance with some trainers and some trainers are that good they can mask the dogs faults, allow for that.

if you are still interested and it is practical start a relationship with yr breeder, not possible if lives far away. visit often watch him work and interact with his own dogs. some breeders say they are to busy breeding to train, be suspicious of this, but in some cases it is true and they have good trainers/owners/customers that you can see.

if you still are interested and the breeder knows more about your needs you can start testing yrself, depending on yr experience this may be good or bad, you can always pay (and do pay) a third party to do yr testing for you. this testing should preferably involve both parents and as many progeny as possible in as many different environments as possible. obviously the parents may not be available for testing if they just had pups or pregnant etc. altho any decent female should want to destroy you for just approaching her pups, even a decent mutt will do this even if it has never been trained for man-work.

i did my own testing on my breeders dogs and i am no expert decoy, i am more like the crazy guy on the street which is much harder for a dog to deal with.

nearly all my breeders of interest whimped out on the last stage of my process - the excuses were very imaginitave. one breeder who does not even have a web-site just said sure come over and do whatever test you like but if you get dirty i will let my dogs get dirty as well - sound fair.

i arrived unnanounced on his door-step, introduced myself and said i'm here to test yr dogs - i would freak most people out by that - the breeder offered me a cup of coffee and said sure this will be fun, you ever done this before? i lied and said yes.

anyhoo we i tested his dogs inside his house, outside his house and at an abandoned industrial site. i went at his dogs like a banshee in a bite suit. i was the one that always quit first - the breeder spent most of the time laughing his butt off, it was kinda easy for his dogs really.

end result - i handed over a pile of cash and asked him on a reccomendation on a pup in the litter, we played with them, talked a bit and i left with a pup. have no idea about pedigree or certs or anything. breeder just said i will get a healthy pup or he will repalce it. no need very healthy puppy - no hip score yet.

so that is my puppy purchase story and my 18mo will tear you a new butt-hole.

as a general rule the easier a breeder is to find the worse his dogs will be. the only breeders worth talking to are the ones that breed for their own work and work their own dogs.

many on the forums will disagree with me but they are the same fools that mocked me as a noob and i will bet money most of the experts dogs will be shut down and cowering before mine will.





 


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